[00:00:00] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Have you ever wondered what healthcare might look like in 20 years? Today, sit down with Dr. Anoop Kumar, an emergency physician, mind body strategist, and founder of Health Revolution. Dr. Kumar has a unique take on healthcare shaped by his near death experience during medical school. He's here to challenge our understanding of health.[00:00:20] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And to show us how taking back our power can lead to true healing, you'll learn why he believes that nutrition, [00:00:30] movement, connection, and rest are the cornerstones of health and why our current healthcare system might be missing the mark. Stay until the end to hear Dr. Kumar's vision for the future of medicine, including his perspective on treating cancer.

[00:00:43] Dr. Katie Deming MD: [00:01:00]

[00:01:22] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What does consciousness have to do with health?

[00:01:25] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Everything.

[00:01:26] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It really depends on what we mean by consciousness. you know that in [00:01:30] medicine, in medicine, we do talk about consciousness and allopathy, but it's usually in terms of loss of consciousness after head trauma, um,or we talk about levels of consciousness in sedation. So we have, you know, lethargy, uptendation, and so on.

[00:01:44] Dr. Anoop Kumar: We have a stupor, coma, we have these levels of consciousness. We have the presence of absence of consciousness in terms of head trauma, let's say. Or syncope when a person quote unquote passes out, I'd say the first question even before that is what is consciousness [00:02:00] and I would say that consciousness is not just how we usually think about it as our waking state.

[00:02:08] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So right now, everybody listening, we're all conscious, right? What are we conscious of? Well, in this case, you're conscious of a face and a voice, and if you look around, you're conscious of the objects in the room. And so we might classify all of this as the waking state of consciousness. For example, you're awake, but don't forget, there's an entirely different state of consciousness, which is dream consciousness, right?

[00:02:28] Dr. Anoop Kumar: We don't even, in the ER, we [00:02:30] don't even think about that really. Consciousness is just the waking state. No, there's an entire dream state of consciousness, right? And there are hallucinogenic states, psychogenic states, depending on if we're doing psychedelics. And In some traditions, we even know that even in sleep, there's a consciousness.

[00:02:46] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So, just because we're not conscious of the external world, or even a dream world, it doesn't mean we're not conscious. We know people who have been under sedation, who come back and say, I experienced this and that, or I even experienced my own body, even as the surgeon was [00:03:00] operating on me. we know people who have been in coma on sedation, including drips that are sedating them, who come back with experiences.

[00:03:07] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So, this tells us that consciousness is way, way more than how we usually think about it. Another way, another thing to consider is that, is it that our brain is producing consciousness? Right? That the brain, a particular configuration of neurons and atoms put together just so puts these little clouds that come out in the cartoons, the clouds coming out of the [00:03:30] head.

[00:03:30] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You know? Is it the brain that is producing consciousness? Well, aren't we conscious of the brain also? Right? Aren't we conscious of the body? Aren't we conscious of space? So is all of this stuff in consciousness? Or is consciousness made by this stuff? These are questions. These are adventures for us to go on.

[00:03:49] Dr. Anoop Kumar: There's no yes and no to this stuff, right? There are entire traditions and philosophies that explore these. It's not a yes or no question. It's, huh, what about that? What if this? [00:04:00] Once we start this exploration, we can see that consciousness and health are intimately linked. At a very simple level, what I'm conscious of, I can do, right?

[00:04:10] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So if somebody says, well, for this disease, we can do A, B, and C. Okay. That's what I do. But I'm not conscious that's, I'm not conscious that there's D, E, F, G, H, I. Once I become conscious of that, now I have more options for my health. Very simple level, very simple premise. Going back to the previous example, though, if [00:04:30] consciousness is not just a few puffs of clouds that the brain puts out.

[00:04:35] Dr. Anoop Kumar: But if in fact, consciousness is primary, not yours or my consciousness, but a fundamental kind of consciousness that goes beyond the body and the brain, then is it possible to change the body? Based on our state of consciousness. Now, I would say to everybody out there, Of course it is. We all do that. When we go into the sleep state, the body changes.

[00:04:56] Dr. Anoop Kumar: The metabolism changes, right? The, the types of waves, the [00:05:00] brain waves change. So the body absolutely does change. We already know that scientifically, based on the state of consciousness. When I feel happy, you'll see it on me. If I feel sad, you'll see my body changing. The body changes in response to the state of consciousness.

[00:05:18] Dr. Anoop Kumar: The question we have to ask is, How far does that go? How much can we change our bodies and our minds depending on the state of consciousness? When we start [00:05:30] investigating that, we will get some really cool answers as to how consciousness and health are linked.

[00:05:35] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love that. Thank you so much for Starting us out with that.

[00:05:39] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And it is, it's like exactly what you said is, you know, to define consciousness is really important for us to have an understanding of what it is that we're talking about, then to understand how it applies to anything, including health. Anup, I would love to have you explain to us a little bit about, you know, what happened [00:06:00] that really opened you up to thinking about this in a broader sense and also as a physician?

[00:06:07] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Well, when I was growing up, I was in a household that was super into philosophy and spirituality. My parents were really into it. And in a sense, it was my primary education. I would always hear these things. We were always going to the local center and talking and discussing. And there was always a, a spirit of almost debate and adventure and exploration, right?

[00:06:28] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It was never like, you have to believe this or you have to [00:06:30] believe that it's like, what about that, but how does the mind relate to that? And then what about what we're experiencing? And how do you, so it was all this kind of experimentation that I found very refreshing. And then you would go to school and they'd be like, learn this ABCD, reproduce it on the exam.

[00:06:45] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You know, it was just like so much less exciting. And, and then at some point in medical school, I mean, similar kind of thing in medical school, I felt like. It was the same kind of stuff, but it was just more of it. It was a matter of volume, right? I didn't feel like there was there was [00:07:00] depth into the human being and human nature.

[00:07:02] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It was just like anatomy You know, here's like 10 textbooks and then here's physiology and then you're just like piling them all on But it felt very much like elementary school middle school high school same thing just more information And I find I found it just not that fulfilling just in terms of the information And I felt like people were much more than that.

[00:07:20] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So anyway, there was this point in time medical school where I was home for a break at my parents place and I was sitting in my [00:07:30] room in the bedroom I grew up in and I was reading something. And then at some point, really unexpectedly, it felt like this explosion went off in the room. It was, I was just sitting there and it was just like, Oh, not the sound and everything, but like the lights and just the, the spontaneousness of it.

[00:07:47] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And then it felt like, strangely enough, I was sitting in the sun, and it was a brilliant orange saffron kind of blaze, just absolutely brilliant, and really nothing else. So my [00:08:00] body wasn't there, you know, my local thinking mind in that same sense wasn't there, space and time weren't there, there was no passage of time, and everything was just perfect.

[00:08:11] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And then at some point, It was almost like I had drank enough. I was just like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, like, ah. And then at some point, I started to move through this. So it was, in retrospect, it was some kind of a portal, actually. The sun itself. And I started to move through this. And I [00:08:30] realized that if I were to take one more step, it was all over.

[00:08:33] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It was, I would have left the lifetime. There was no coming back. And that was it. ever. I wasn't coming back. And just at that moment, this being of light emerged from the sun and put this kind of idea in the mind that this isn't fair and that there's still stuff to do. There's still more to do, essentially, and kind of just left it like that.

[00:08:56] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And I realized that this being was correct. It just [00:09:00] made me pause, essentially, as I was trucking through. It made me pause. Pause, and tremendous, I would say, pressure let me through, just to move through and finish it, and I, but that, the truth of what they said just made me pause, and that's all it took, and everything re imploded, and kind of shot back with the body, with the room, and, and there I was, sitting there in the room again, and, everything had changed at that point, like [00:09:30] the way I saw how, how, I would see perception had changed identity what I was had changed or what I recognize myself as I should say, and that was the beginning of a period of integration that still continues today.

[00:09:46] Dr. Anoop Kumar: initially it wasn't too bad. And then when I started my residency, it really became difficult for the first several months to a couple of years. And it really took about 10 plus years, probably 12 years or so to really learn how to walk again. I say, [00:10:00] without compromising right without pretending.

[00:10:02] Dr. Anoop Kumar: That things are the way they were without pretending that, that I could just kind of go on and pretend that things are okay in the world, in health care, you know, in general. So that was the experience that kind of changed everything. And importantly, it goes on. It's ongoing right now. It's happening. And that is what compels me to communicate.

[00:10:23] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And when you say it's happening, you mean the integration from that experience of what you brought from [00:10:30] that that's still occurring? Is that what you mean when you say that?

[00:10:33] Dr. Anoop Kumar: The, the integrating is going to be all lifetime long,and, and just the, the, the shift, the shift in perceiving and who I am and kind of almost deciding, choosing where in this range do I want to be, right?

[00:10:48] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Do I let it go completely? Do I bring it back to earth completely? No, it's always going to be somewhere in between somewhere in a range. And where do I want to be? What's [00:11:00] effective? That's kind of an always ongoing process.

[00:11:03] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Got it. That makes sense. And in retrospect, I've heard you describe this, so the experience that you had was a near death like experience.

[00:11:13] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Right. Okay. And, you know, one question I have for you is, did you tell anyone? Did you talk to about this? Because that was one of the things for me after it happened is like, I don't even know what to say. It just doesn't, it's almost hard to find words. So I'm wondering how you did that. You were what [00:11:30] year of medical school when this happened?

[00:11:31] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I think it was the end of third year or beginning of fourth year, somewhere in there. you know, what, what's strange is that it's, it's, it's unusual that after that, so things started to settle down at some point and I just kind of went on my life. I didn't even really think about it. And it's kind of strange to say, because, you know, when, when, when something shifts, you don't, you don't necessarily have a story about it, right?

[00:11:58] Dr. Anoop Kumar: This story that I'm telling [00:12:00] you. It's, I probably started telling it over 10 years later, I think, I'm not exactly sure, but it's, I mean, yeah, I mean, that was over, let's see, that was probably like 17 years ago or something. I've only been talking about it for maybe five years. I'm not sure. Something like that.

[00:12:14] Dr. Anoop Kumar: so I think I just, I just didn't think about it because there was no thought pattern about it. It was just a shift and then you just kind of keep on going. And the other thing is that. I, I had heard so many things growing up, [00:12:30] you know, and I'd been around people who had been doing this stuff for decades.

[00:12:35] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And so one of the things that I always heard is like, don't, don't give, you know, experiences like this too much attention. Don't pay too much attention to it. Don't talk about it too much. You know, it's just like, it's, it's part of the journey and that, that kind of thing. So that also was a factor that even when I went back and I was like, huh, you know, this, this kind of shifted.

[00:12:55] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And even then I didn't really feel like talking about it because, I felt it was [00:13:00] more significant to say what is true. Like, what has that shown me? What do I realize from that? That's what I wanted to talk about because I didn't want to talk about a big, flashy experience. And it was so, because what happens now is I do a lot of interviews.

[00:13:16] Dr. Anoop Kumar: People hear that and then they say, and then this like, and then can you do this? And then, you know, does this happen? And then it, it kind of misses the point at some point, right? So I want to tell the story. I think it's really important to show what's real, what can happen in this world, what can happen in this [00:13:30] lifetime.

[00:13:30] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And at the same time, then move on from that to say, what does that mean about us and what we're doing in this world? You know? So I think all of those played a factor in why I didn't talk about it. I was never hesitant to talk about, I never felt like it's too weird to talk about. I just. Either didn't pay attention to it or just decided, you know, I don't think that's going to really take the communication where I want it to.

[00:13:51] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, well, and that's beautiful. Actually, just you had context for something like that, given your spiritual background as a child. So for you, it [00:14:00] wasn't like something so unusual. This is something that you, you know, maybe not that you expected it to happen, but it wasn't some like totally unexpected event.

[00:14:11] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I want to ask you. You know, how has this shift in your perception and just the shifts overall that have happened for you, how does that influence the way that you see medicine and healthcare?

[00:14:29] Dr. Anoop Kumar: The [00:14:30] biggest thing is that, you know, the most fundamental questions, like I don't think we know what health is in healthcare. You know, I remember, I don't think we know what a human being is as crazy as it is. Like, I don't think our model of anatomy is complete or sufficient to facilitate health. Our model of anatomy is more conducive to disease sustenance and disease mitigation than creating health because we model ourselves so [00:15:00] incompletely, right?

[00:15:01] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So, I'll tell you a story about what is health. My first year of emergency medicine training, on a very busy night, a lot of gunshot wounds and stab wounds and heart attacks, and it was early in the morning, maybe, I don't know, 2am, 3am, 4am, and a nurse ran in, with a baby. It was on top of everything else, and it wasn't breathing, and then we had to resuscitate the baby, and at some point, and I'm an intern, you know, I'm just like, I'm like, My mind is scrambling, I'm going this way and that way.

[00:15:27] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I'm also managing a lot of other things that are happening [00:15:30] because of that shift that happened a couple years back, right? And all of this stuff coming to the surface. And at some point, amidst this cacophony, I realized, so it's, it's like somebody pressed pause and everything just like paused. And it's almost like I sat down and closed my eyes and folded my legs and just went into this like deep peace.

[00:15:50] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I don't think that's what physically happened. That's just somehow this is what it felt like. Right. And. And then this phrase came like, we don't know what health is, it was just [00:16:00] like, like emblazoned on my soul, you know, like, we don't know what health is. And I mean, I looked around, all of us are running around and doing this, I realized that's what it is.

[00:16:10] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You know, we have something called health care, and we're trying to move towards something. Hopefully what we're trying to move towards is health, but we don't know what it is. It's like getting in your car and saying, well, I'm going to this place and you don't have your GPS. You don't know where it is.

[00:16:23] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You don't know the directions and you're like, well, I'm just going to drive and maybe I'll get there. No, you won't get there. Right. You'll get somewhere, but you don't [00:16:30] know, really know where you're going. So that's one thing that became very clear that I could not ignore. And then the other thing, like I said, is, and then, so along with that comes so many things, right?

[00:16:41] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So there's corruption in healthcare. I mean, it's not that. We don't know what health care is. It's not just an accident that we don't know what health is and we're not looking into it. You know, I look at the National Institutes of Health. What do they research? Disease. It's the National Institutes of Disease.

[00:16:55] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It's not the National Institutes of Health. Most of their research is about disease. It's just like, it's [00:17:00] so mind bogglingly obvious, but we ignore it. Right. Health care is not primarily about health. It's about disease mitigation. Like it or not, let's just call it what it is, you know, it's disease care.

[00:17:10] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And to me, that's not, I don't, that's not me putting it down because I think we can do valuable things in allopathy, but if we're not, if we can't, Admit or acknowledge where we are. We can't change it. That's the problem, right? And then human anatomy is another one So we have our model. I have my netters atlas back there of human anatomy [00:17:30] And yet if you go to if you go in india, they'll have another model They have a yoga model with chakras and nadis, right?

[00:17:37] Dr. Anoop Kumar: If you go to china, they'll have meridians If you go to another tradition, they'll have something else And we just kind of ignore that. It's mind boggling. We just ignore it. We're like, well, we know what anatomy is. That stuff might be around for millions of years, but it's not really valid. Or, you know, we don't understand it.

[00:17:55] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So we're just going to ignore it. That's a huge problem. If, if there are millions or [00:18:00] hundreds of millions or billions of people that see the human being in another way, we have to acknowledge that there's something there. How do we integrate that? And it's not enough to say, well, here's another model.

[00:18:10] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Here's another model. Here's another model. It's the same species, right? So we have to integrate them. How do they link together? And when we do that, I think we will have new avenues to health. So I guess to sum it up, it, It, it prevented me from ignoring these things that I had kind of ignored before. and it made, made it painful to [00:18:30] ignore these things because when people come into the ER, they're coming because these things are not looked into in our system.

[00:18:37] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Well, I think that you. Summarize what I also experienced of this shift in my perception and then all of a sudden, I couldn't pretend like I had this sense before. So I had been practicing a long time, like 20 years before I had my experience and had this sense. I served at all levels of health care, and so I had a [00:19:00] very deep understanding, but also like a very deep conditioning into the system, and I had known that there was something wrong.

[00:19:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, I would, I remember hearing this. parable at a meditation retreat in like 2017 about the river. And my listeners have heard this story before, but basically there, the meditation instructor was telling this story of that there was a river and there was a village alongside the river and that one day there was a [00:19:30] body drowning in the river.

[00:19:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so the villagers, Sent, you know, someone out to rescue the person who was drowning and then the next day there were two. And so then they sent two people out and the next day, four and then eight in this village became so organized at rescuing people off the river. And they were, you know, they had rescue boats and this.

[00:19:48] Dr. Katie Deming MD: big elaborate rescue system and the village elders were praising them for what an amazing job they were doing. And I turned to my friend who is a GYN oncologist and I said to her, this [00:20:00] is Western oncology and what the heck is happening? Like what are we doing? We are glorified rescue workers on the river.

[00:20:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: We don't know what's happening upstream. Why is everyone falling in the river? And then. Why are we not helping them figure out why they fell in so that they don't fall in again? And it created this, you know, for me, it was like just exploded my life because I couldn't ignore it You know, I couldn't ignore this that we had seen but I also have a real sense [00:20:30] of I guess compassion is the right word for other doctors who, we've all been conditioned into this system, right?

[00:20:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And that idea of not looking outside it is what we've been conditioned to do. You know, that's not an accident. And, and before that, I didn't see it, but then once I saw it, you can't unsee it. Right. And so, absolutely everything that you're saying there makes so much sense. And so, you know, I know this is part of [00:21:00] your mission now with, revolution or health revolution.

[00:21:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I'm wondering, like, what is the future of health look like for you in your world? Like, what is, what does that look like? What we're, what we should be going towards?

[00:21:14] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I want to speak to what you said first, because I think it's so important, you know, that kind of the way of thinking, the conditioning actually begins, like, in infancy, it doesn't happen in medical school.

[00:21:27] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So it happens in infancy, when we're first told, [00:21:30] you know, this is your nose, this is your mouth, this is your shoulder, this is your, and then when the child repeats this, we're like, yay, good job, Anub, good job, Katie, yay. But we don't say, you know, this is joy, this is wonder, this is sadness. Right? This is curiosity.

[00:21:47] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So, what is the result of that? What we're essentially doing is taking this expansive, deep awareness that an infant has when they're born, and we're making them progressively narrow it. Narrow. Narrow. Narrow. What you [00:22:00] are is a nose, mouth, this, that. When you do that, we cheer for you, we give you sweets, we give you treats.

[00:22:04] Dr. Anoop Kumar: If you start spacing out, you can do that till you're about five years old, six years old. Then it becomes weird. No imaginary friends, no spacing out. In fact, it's even called spacing out. Nobody says that the infant is spacing out even though they're always like this, right? Nobody says, well, that infant is spacing out, but you do that at seven, they're spacing out and they need to be medicated because you're spacing out too much.

[00:22:23] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Right? So, It's really important to understand that this kind of dissociation, and it is a [00:22:30] dissociation, happens in childhood. We teach people, we teach human beings to dissociate from their full nature and dissociate into a very physicalized experience, even though we are much more than that. And this goes back to the initial question of what is consciousness?

[00:22:45] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Is it just this thing that the brain creates? Because that comes from a dissociated understanding of science. Once we dissociate into this and define ourselves physically in brains, then we say, well, I think the brain creates consciousness. That's a dissociated [00:23:00] understanding, even regardless of how many MDs and PhDs you have, right?

[00:23:04] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Then you go through elementary school, middle school, and high school, and they're like, well, you know what you're made of? These little things. Protons, neutrons, and electrons. You put them all together, and here you have you. So this is a Mr. Potato Head model that we all learn, we all learn this anatomy.

[00:23:18] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Right that the whole world is just a bunch of little balls and sticks and you put it together and it's amazing, right? That is what we build on in medical school, right? So we actually don't learn new anatomy in medical school [00:23:30] We learn different levels of detail, right? So at rock bottom in medical school, it's still protons neutrons and electrons, right?

[00:23:36] Dr. Anoop Kumar: There's no advancement in the constitution of the human being starting from fifth grade all the way through medical school residency training fellowship It's it's mind boggling You The, the low level of education that is installed. And then you, but you learn different levels of complexity and you have cells and you have tissues and you have the physiology and the pathophysiology and all that is basically rearranging the same parts at different levels of [00:24:00] detail.

[00:24:00] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So then what happens is now you're given a certain amount of respect and prestige in society, because now you're a doctor, you're given a good salary. And of course, in most cases, you have to pay back some loans. And now it's very difficult to innovate now a new way, as you said, the conditioning now has been for decades at this point.

[00:24:22] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And can a person really speak up in a new way and risk their salary, right? And paying back loans and [00:24:30] all that, if they realize that we need to model ourselves more completely. Right? So I just want to speak to the depth and the comprehensiveness of the conditioning and the difficult situation that our fellow colleagues are in.

[00:24:41] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You know, it's. It's not necessarily that people don't realize, but are you willing to risk your career is the bottom line, right? And so when it comes to anatomy, for example, the way we experience ourselves Primarily is not as physical things, right? So what people are experiencing [00:25:00] now may be curiosity. It may be wonder, right?

[00:25:03] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It may be doubt. But those things don't show up in our model of anatomy because we've decided that things are physical. Very few people right now are experiencing their liver, their kidney, their left fourth toe, their spleen, right? Even the ventricles of their heart, right? If those things are functioning generally well, we're not experiencing them.

[00:25:20] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And yet when we model ourselves, The majority of what we're modeling is stuff that we're not really experiencing. Of course, that model is important. The physical model is absolutely important, but [00:25:30] it's part of a greater model. And there's an inbuilt philosophy there that says that, well, everything else comes from this, so we're just going to pay attention to this, but that's not scientific, that's philosophy.

[00:25:39] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So I just wanted to paint that full picture of why that happens. And now I'll get to your question of what does the future of health look like? To me, the healthcare system is going to play a smaller and smaller role in health as we go forward, and it's already happening. I think you would be hard pressed to find a healthcare [00:26:00] system now that doesn't use the word wellness somewhere, because they can't afford to ignore it now.

[00:26:05] Dr. Anoop Kumar: This idea of wellness, which basically symbolizes that the way we've been understanding health is insufficient. It's something much more than this. That cannot be ignored by healthcare anymore. And so now pretty much every medical center has some center for integrative medicine or center for complimentary medicine.

[00:26:20] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Why? Because they realize that our models are insufficient and people want something more than this. That's just the first step. But I think what's going to happen is allied health [00:26:30] professionals. And by that, I mean, people who have experienced health and human potential themselves. Right? Not necessarily, not necessarily like went to medical school, got a degree, did a fellowship, did the training, started practicing clinically, did all this.

[00:26:43] Dr. Anoop Kumar: That person themselves might have hypertension and diabetes and two or three other diagnoses. And they don't know how to actually cure, despite all of the education, because the education kind of also conditions in a particular mind. on the other hand, somebody else may not have that education, but they [00:27:00] had XYZ and they cured it.

[00:27:01] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And they got better. That is a different kind of expertise. I would say at least equally valuable, if not more valuable, because it's firsthand experience, you know, the pearls in the pitfalls and you can help people on their journey. I think people like that are the future of health. I think right now we're in the midst of a shift from healthcare to health.

[00:27:20] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Right. There was healthcare first, then wellness came along and it's this huge field. I think those two are going to be integrated, healthcare and wellness, and we're going to move towards health. That [00:27:30] means that fewer people eventually, as we wake up more, are going to be accessing the healthcare system.

[00:27:35] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It's going to happen at home. It's going to happen with health coaches and allied health professionals. And they're going to start focusing on what we talk about at Health Revolution, which are nutrition, movement, connection, and rest. I see that people are going to understand this more and more as primary medicine, and people will begin to see that allopathy is the true complementary medicine.

[00:27:56] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Allopathy is complementary medicine. It's just been kind of [00:28:00] backwards marketing so far to say that allopathy is primary care. No, allopathy is complementary medicine. And when you use it as complementary medicine, and when you use nutrition, movement, connection, and rest as primary medicine, people are going to start to heal more and more.

[00:28:13] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And that will actually raise allopathy to its true capacity to do what it can really do to help people. Rather than it being used in situations when it's not the best.

[00:28:22] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love that. Well in one, actually I want to have one, ask a question about that because in the space [00:28:30] of, cancer, there are a lot of people who have cured their own illness and then they're out teaching other people, but One of the challenges that I see with that is that then they want you or other people to do exactly what they did.

[00:28:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And this is one of the risks that I see is that what works for one person. may not work for others. And that is, that is one of the things that for me, I'm always [00:29:00] cautious where I'm like, that's amazing. And so take what they're doing and the pieces that work for you, but recognize that you are a unique individual.

[00:29:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: All of us are. and really we need to have discernment about when someone saying something if it's not working for our body or if it doesn't feel right to recognize that that one person's experience does not mean that that same path is going to work for you. So that is just one thing that I want to say about that and I'm wondering kind of what your thoughts are about that.

[00:29:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: It's

[00:29:29] Dr. Anoop Kumar: a [00:29:30] very important point and that's important for all people working in health. You Including us allopathic physicians, because sometimes it doesn't work the other way around. We say, well, this is the way and you know, we have X, Y, Z study. And so you need to do this, but the study has not looked at this person.

[00:29:45] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It might not go with their values or what they're feeling. I've interviewed so many people who have healed from cancer, by doing something else, right. And often going against what their doctor is saying, that doesn't mean that you should go against what your doctor is saying. [00:30:00] This is the hard conversation.

[00:30:01] Dr. Anoop Kumar: This is the difficult conversation. It, it is a person or two people or three people, it doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone. And in fact, that kind of open conversation is so critical for everybody in healthcare. So somebody can say this, this, this worked for me, look into this, you know, but it doesn't mean don't listen to your doctor, you know, it doesn't mean just do what I'm doing.

[00:30:23] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And I think that goes across the board because I think we're guilty of that in allopathy too. We say, well, we have the studies and [00:30:30] our studies, our system, to be frank. We don't publish case studies of healing. I've interviewed 20 or 30 people. Are any of their case studies published? No. One of a couple of them who heal completely from rheumatoid arthritis and some other conditions, they actually asked their doctor to publish.

[00:30:44] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And they said, no, because we don't want people to not do what the doctor is telling them. Right. And by the way, that doctor is very well intentioned. They're not trying to trick people. They're just doing what they've been conditioned, what they know. So we have reached this place. [00:31:00] Where we as physicians, allopathic physicians, are, we just believe that this is the only way, and if we don't do this, that we are harming people, and that understanding from us comes from a very well intentioned place, but it is ignorance, it is ignorance, because we don't know who would benefit from not doing this, and I think the wisest thing to do and the kindest thing to do is say, hey, these are the protocols, these are the studies, these are the limitations, We don't finally know we have to do [00:31:30] something that's aligned with your values, right?

[00:31:32] Dr. Anoop Kumar: But this is what I know. This is my expertise and this is my recommendation. I think that's very honest. And on the other hand, allied health professionals have to do this exact same thing. This is what I did, right? I don't know that it'll work for you. Maybe you can find them to get something together.

[00:31:46] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And that's the idea of integrative care. You know, that's the whole idea of flipping this idea of primary and complementary medicine. Is that you know nutrition like eating processed foods doesn't help anybody right? I can't say well You have type 2 [00:32:00] diabetes for you processed foods are good, you know Or you have this diagnosis of cancer for you try about 25 processed foods.

[00:32:06] Dr. Anoop Kumar: No, nobody needs processed foods, right? There are certain fundamentals Like going outside on a on a on a nice day for almost anybody is good Right bare feet in the soil for almost anybody is good unless you have rattlesnakes right around you or something, right? so Example getting clarity nutrition of the mind i'm going through nutrition movement connection arrest So nutrition food nutrition of the [00:32:30] mind getting clarity on your options is good for everybody moving your body stretching range of motion Breathing fully so that you actually oxygenate the lower aspect of your lungs and you get better oxygenation in your body This is good for everybody, right?

[00:32:44] Dr. Anoop Kumar: a practice of meditation, a gentle practice where we learn to still the mind over time without self judgment. This is good for everybody. Good sleep is good for everybody. Mindfulness is good for everybody and so on. So connecting with people, right? Connecting with people, [00:33:00] hugging, physical contact. So emotions, releasing emotions.

[00:33:04] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So I think we have to be careful when we say. You know, there are certain things that work and there are certain things that other that don't work. Yes But we are all homo sapiens sapiens There are certain fundamentals that work for all homo sapiens and we don't emphasize them in health care. That's the fact That's why i'm saying those things are primary medicine and pretty much everybody within reason should do those things And if you do that, [00:33:30] and then you add on the complementary medicine of allopathy if and where it's needed You I think we'll have great results.

[00:33:36] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, well, and exactly what you just described is exactly what I teach is mine. I put it, you know, a different way, but it's basically six pillars that address exactly what you just described. Nutrition, movement, connection, and rest all fit in my six pillars. And I'm like, look, you're a human being living on planet earth.

[00:33:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: There are certain things that your body is just designed to have good nutrition, Clean [00:34:00] alive water connecting with the sun and the earth, like all of those pieces, if more of us just did that, it would be easier to heal. And that's what I tell people that I do. It's like the way, if we put the right inputs together for our bodies, we become cleaner.

[00:34:19] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And better able to do what our bodies are designed to do, which is to deal with any illness that arises. Right. So let's just take cancer as an example. It's an imbalance [00:34:30] of increased toxicity and decreased immune function. And basically, when that happens, you have cancer growing. But if you have an optimally functioning immune system, because someone is getting their nutrition, movement, connection and arrest, then when you have a few cancer cells, our body takes care of it.

[00:34:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Right. And so it's this piece of just understanding their basic inputs. And, and they're actually opposite of what we're taught in medical school. We're taught to just ignore all of that and [00:35:00] just focus on the disease. And this is where the system is just so backwards. And I'm with you in that this is.

[00:35:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Primary health. This is how you teach people about health. And then you use allopathy in the circumstances where even with doing that, you're still not getting, you know, your body is not able to handle it completely by yourself. So, all of that makes total sense to me.

[00:35:25] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And I think one of the things that we have to dispel one of the myths is that [00:35:30] what I'm talking about, what you're talking about is not prevention.

[00:35:33] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It is also prevention, but it's also treatment. There are people who heal from diseases with this. So it's like, this happens in good health. This happens in during disease. This happens. As disease is improving, this continues after disease is gone. Nutrition, movement, connection, and rest are fundamental to human sustenance and development.

[00:35:54] Dr. Anoop Kumar: In that process somewhere, allopathy might show up and go away, right? That's how allopathy is [00:36:00] supposed to be used. It's not supposed to be allopathy comes in and then allopathy, allopathy, allopathy. It's a new baseline forever. No. In, and through that nutrition, movement, connection, and rest are continuing.

[00:36:10] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So it's not just prevention. That's another kind of marketing ploy, marketing confusion that's out there. And it's like, well, that's all good. Do that prevent for prevention. If it doesn't work, then switch to this. No, don't switch. Keep going and add on something else, right? And look into what needs to be refined in those because there are many aspects to nutrition, movement, connection, and rest.[00:36:30]

[00:36:30] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So that's, that's something that's really essential for anybody who has a disease. It's like this, you know, if, if a plant is sick, right? You and the leaves are brown. You can't just paint it green. It doesn't work, right? And if it's not getting sunshine, you can't give it some vitamins. It's not gonna work The vitamins may make it better, but it has to get sunshine.

[00:36:51] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It has to get water It has to have space for its roots. There is no substitute for those Similarly, there is zero [00:37:00] substitute for nutrition, movement, connection, and rest for attending to those. That's really important to understand no matter where a person is in their life or health journey, there is no substitute for this.

[00:37:11] Dr. Anoop Kumar: There are always add ons that we can use and we should, by all means, we should use those, but we have to always attend and cultivate this foundation of being human.

[00:37:20] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Absolutely. And I, I really appreciate you. pointing that out with the whole spectrum that it's not just about prevention. I mean, so I'm a [00:37:30] Western trained oncologist, practiced for 20 years, you know, led large scale cancer system, believed in all of that.

[00:37:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I'm telling you, I'm using these principles now to help people treat cancer and eliminate it. So, and, and sometimes without conventional therapy. So, this, this, it is not just about, and this is that, and also the other thing that you brought up about like wellness showing up in healthcare systems is in some ways I feel [00:38:00] like it's, Um, a false attempt at really saying we're addressing this, but they're not because I know as a physician, We're taught terrible nutrition, like taught to eat out of vending machines and to not eat meals and to just be completely stressed out and not sleeping and all of that stuff.

[00:38:20] Dr. Katie Deming MD: It's the doctors don't even know what this means and not because they're not smart and not because they don't want to know. It's because again, [00:38:30] the conditioning, you know, that to be a successful person, you've got to ignore your own needs, but. You know, the more I dove into this work of what really makes us well, the more I understand that I can't give you anything unless I know how to create it for myself.

[00:38:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And that's why I took a whole year off before starting this practice to really, you know, Get in touch with my well being and my health. But most of the doctors, unfortunately, by the nature of the system, have to [00:39:00] ignore their own needs and are not living that lifestyle themselves. So and then when they, you know, in the hospitals, you hear the doctors are always like, Oh, the wellness program, like you're telling me just to like meditate for 10 minutes, and this is going to solve the problem of like a completely dysfunctional system, right?

[00:39:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah.

[00:39:17] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Yeah, and that's, that's where, you know, like I said before, everybody now knows that healthcare is insufficient as it is, right? It has been, but now [00:39:30] hospital administration, executives, you know, decision makers, they can't ignore it anymore. You could have ignored it maybe 10 years ago or so, but now, like I said, even if you have nothing to do with wellness, you will have the word wellness somewhere in your marketing materials or somewhere in the hospital system.

[00:39:45] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Yeah. And you'll have some program to get people walking and get them on the right nutrition, which is all a step in the right direction. But will you make that the centerpiece of your hospital system? And the sad truth is, no. In most [00:40:00] cases, no. Because if you really do that and coach people and help people to do that, you will drop your clientele by 25%, by 50%, right?

[00:40:08] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You'll have fewer cardiac catheterizations. You may not have any. Very few. Right? Fewer angioplasty. Right? You'll have many fewer people that are coming back for repeat visits. And this is a fact, and we have to talk about it. Right? That's the truth. Those are the incentives now. But we have to do what's right for people.

[00:40:27] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You know, I see patients in the ER coming in [00:40:30] for the same thing over and over and over. Asthmatics who are having asthma exacerbations, for example. I spoke to a colleague recently who had asthma for a long time. They took dairy out of their diet, their asthma of 30 years went away, just went away. They used to have regular exacerbations.

[00:40:45] Dr. Anoop Kumar: How many of asthmatics know to try something like that? And not just as, you know, hey, just do this. But are coached, are helped, you know? Week by week, follow up, different, you know, the food journal, etc. Doing [00:41:00] all of these things, looking at environmental toxins, to actually do that. I don't think it's the majority of people.

[00:41:06] Dr. Anoop Kumar: One of the people I interviewed is Dr. Caldo Esselstyn, who came up with, uh, plant based nutrition that has literally reversed people's heart disease. Reversed people. People, including people whose cardiac surgeons said, there's nothing else left to do. There's, there's no viable tunnel for your blood to travel to this segment of your heart.

[00:41:26] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And their symptoms will go away with just plant based nutrition. And you know what he [00:41:30] said? I think the way he does it, he has something like a four hour, five hour seminar On saturday mornings followed by this amazing lunch plant based lunch that people actually enjoy He gets the the patient involved.

[00:41:42] Dr. Anoop Kumar: He gets their spouse involved their kids if possible He calls them back personally how many hospital systems are willing to do that? That's what it takes and he follows up with them regularly You know, it cannot be done in a five minute visit where you're like, well, you know eat your vegetables too. It helps You're literally trying to change a person's life.

[00:41:59] Dr. Anoop Kumar: That's not going to [00:42:00] happen in three minute conversations once every month or so. So, I think we have to be honest about what our values are and what we really want. Wellness sounds nice. You know, a lot of the bells and whistles, you know, blood pressure drives and all this kind of stuff sounds nice. But, to me, health is about, love and power.

[00:42:18] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I just wrote a post today on LinkedIn about this. Health is about love and power. Innovation, clinical care, policy is all downstream. It first starts with love and power. Do we love ourselves and our [00:42:30] patients enough to do what is right? Not just manage their disease, but cure it, right? Because when I see patients in the ER, what I see is a lot of them have had their power sapped.

[00:42:42] Dr. Anoop Kumar: The power is with the system. The system's always telling them what to do, and even if they're doing it, it doesn't work often. They come back with another exacerbation Right? So there's such a power imbalance there. Why? Because they either do not know or find it difficult to really delve into [00:43:00] nutrition, movement, connection, and rest.

[00:43:01] Dr. Anoop Kumar: What actually heals people. So I think we have to be honest about that. We have to shift our focus. We have to recognize this is about love and power. It's not just about the policy and the protocols and the algorithms. And hopefully then we can actually start to have a health system rather than a healthcare system.

[00:43:16] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, well, and the concept of love and power resonates so much with me because a lot of what I do now is empowering people. Like taking back your power, that's [00:43:30] where people can find healing is when they take back that power. Because especially with a serious diagnosis, there's so much fear, right? And then the system makes you think that the doctors have all the answers.

[00:43:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And then people tune out from what's, you important for them and what their body needs and just listen to the doctors. And there's a lot of kind of disconnect that can happen there. So I love that you brought that up. And actually, this is just a [00:44:00] question that I have for you is thinking about, you know, this future where there's less health care and more of this kind of collaboration and allied health workers and, you know, using allopathy is more of a complimentary.

[00:44:16] Dr. Katie Deming MD: treatment rather than like the main treatment, what do you think happens to physicians in the future? Like, what do you see as the role of physicians?

[00:44:25] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I mean, it really depends on how we're going to be defining physicians. I think the classic [00:44:30] allopathic physician, I think the role of that is going to diminish, because again, the entire, uh, the education that the philosophy, there's actually philosophy under it, is really focused on the physical aspect.

[00:44:43] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And so disease shows up in the physical aspect after it, it is underlying in the energy system and the mental system. And then it kind of shows up in the physical. So it's like, then you get the fire extinguisher, you get the immunosuppressants, you get the steroids, you get the antibiotics, and you kind [00:45:00] of cut off the grass above the ground, which is the physical system.

[00:45:02] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And then it looks good, right? But that might show up in another sense somewhere else. So I think as long as we have that philosophical outlook, as people wake up more. As people move into their power more and their love more, then the role of that physician is going to diminish. Because right now the reason, allopathic physicians, the reason that, that role is so important is because we are looking at it from a disease based [00:45:30] perspective.

[00:45:31] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And that disease based perspective gels with our philosophy. But if people shift, From a disease based perspective and they say no health is something different health. There's something more about that It's not about just disease the more and more people step into that power and demand that The less is going to be the role of the allopathic physician unless there's a significant change in education Which I think will happen.

[00:45:56] Dr. Anoop Kumar: I think that's also part of it But you know right now it's in the form of [00:46:00] shifting towards integrative care. Many people are leaving their clinical practices You Those are some of the early signs that we're seeing of the power shift that's happening.

[00:46:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Well, and I mean, the reason why I asked this particular question is, of course, you know, what people demand in terms of their care will shift and obviously the need for allopathic medicine would go down if people started doing the things that inherently make us healthy.

[00:46:28] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But I'm also thinking about there [00:46:30] are all these Physicians, practitioners who are trapped in this system. And if this is the route out of like people just choosing out of that, then the physicians will hold on stronger, right? Like then there's like this digging into the actual system. And in me, like, I want to believe that there's a way out of this.

[00:46:52] Dr. Katie Deming MD: with both sides working towards the same goal. And really what I see is the physicians are not [00:47:00] necessarily the problem. They are more caught as part of the system. They've just become extensions of the system, but they are the ones who were bright and, you know, wanted to go into medicine to heal people.

[00:47:14] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But who holds the power? are actually the insurers and the administrators. And I kind of would love to see the shift of power or the balance of power shift to where the physicians are learning [00:47:30] this kind of stuff and that we're moving more into a space where physicians are empowered to be teaching so that we're teaching people how things actually heal and Or how the body heals and it's less about needing to go see doctors for the care.

[00:47:48] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But right now it's like the whole system is so broken. But I think if we just say this that, well, people are going to start to, you know, vote with their money, right. Or like, you know what I'm saying? Not going to the doctor and that kind of thing, which we already [00:48:00] see is happening. And then some doctors are leaving the system, but it's like, I, I wish that.

[00:48:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I hope for a future where we can capitalize on all of those bright minds, all of those people who have the capacity to help people get well and went into medicine for that reason. And And as more people are awakening, I think that that's happening, that there is more awareness. And I hate to just have the doctors be kind of a casualty in all of that.

[00:48:27] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Well, I think that's up to us. That's up to us [00:48:30] as the doctors, you know, we have some truths to acknowledge. you know what I said about, about health and the lack of inquiry into health and all of medical education, it's, it's so disease focused, right? I mean, we have anatomy and physiology and basically everything else is disease.

[00:48:46] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Maybe embryology, initial biochemistry, but once you get to pathophysiology, I mean, is there any CME on what is health? Almost every CME is about some diagnosis and treating the diagnosis and so on, right? So it [00:49:00] starts with us. It is our responsibility. Like you said, we are the ones who have the education, who have trained the longest, who are very influential through our lobby.

[00:49:12] Dr. Anoop Kumar: We have to look in the mirror. I wrote in Michelangelo's Medicine, in my first book, I have a chapter at the end called Dear Clinician, where I write this out very clearly. We have to look in the mirror. There's, there's no getting out of this. There's no way forward. For [00:49:30] physicians, that works without us stopping and looking in the mirror and taking stock of what's happening and what we support.

[00:49:36] Dr. Anoop Kumar: There's no way forward, that's just, that's just a fact. And so, we have to say, yeah, you know what, don't look into that. Yeah, you know, there are things that we ignore. And it's really not about blame. Whether it's insurers or whether it's pharma, it's like, I, It's really about, it's who is going to take responsibility, rather than who are we going to blame.

[00:49:55] Dr. Anoop Kumar: The blame is, it's not going to go that far. That's not going to solve the problem, but who is going to [00:50:00] take responsibility? I think we physicians have a deep responsibility to our patients by virtue of the patient doctor relationship, by virtue of the Hippocratic oath, by virtue of just sure of the profession.

[00:50:12] Dr. Anoop Kumar: We have a deep, profound responsibility to stand up and speak up right now in this moment. And the. If we do that, there will be a way forward, there will be because we will summon that capacity. and we don't necessarily know what that will look like, but for example, if [00:50:30] every physician just really started to focus on nutrition, movement, connection and rest in their practice, that would be a beginning, right?

[00:50:36] Dr. Anoop Kumar: You don't have to have a fellowship in some other kind of training or anything. These are common sense things. You don't have to be an expert to really emphasize to your patients every time process food. You just got to cut it out, right? How many, do you really need studies on that? Right? Like get outside more, you know, to really make that a part of our H and P and our practice I think is, is critical and [00:51:00] it's how much we put into that.

[00:51:01] Dr. Anoop Kumar: So I don't think physicians have to be a casualty at all, but that is up to us.

[00:51:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Well, and I just from someone who's actually walked that path of giving it all up, you know, and it cost me a lot. I know most physicians are not willing to just, and for me, it was, I had no choice. Like after that experience, my perception shifted and I was like, this is not true healing and I cannot do this because I knew that when I faced [00:51:30] the end of my life, that I would be judged, and I don't mean judged in like the capital sense, I just mean by myself, like that I would have been accountable to myself for whether I lived what I knew was true.

[00:51:43] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I'd been around, you know, thousands of people who have died as an oncologist, and I know that they all say at the end, I wish I had just died. I wish I had not listened to what other people said, and so I knew that. And so for me, it [00:52:00] was a hard decision, but one that I felt like I had no choice. And I think that most physicians, it's kind of crazy.

[00:52:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, why would you give up everything? But you're absolutely right. Like, we need to take responsibility. We need to be having these conversations to, you know, really honestly discuss. Like, we are in a broken system. And I actually even think. You know, doctors incorporating these things into their regular allopathic medicine isn't working, right?

[00:52:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, so lifestyle [00:52:30] change, it's because the system, you fundamentally have to start questioning the way that we're doing it. Yeah. Because telling them, take this prescription and then also go do these other things and then come back and see me, it's still, we're in this paradigm of power with the doctor rather than the person who's healing.

[00:52:49] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And I think, you know, It's really important to understand the concept of the broken system. the system is, is broken for some people and not for others, right? So there are some people who come in with [00:53:00] an acute injury, um, and they're treated and, and it may not be broken for them, depending on how the whole insurance part goes and all of that may not be broken for them.

[00:53:07] Dr. Anoop Kumar: For many patients, it is broken. It is broken for, the people who are making a lot of money for them in many ways, it's not broken. Right. Or maybe it's a little bit broken. So it's, it's not all or nothing, you know, for the people who own major hospital systems, and you know, who are making seven figures or whatever it is, or, or eight figures or nine figures, it's not broken.

[00:53:29] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And I think it's [00:53:30] really important to be clear eyed about that. You know, it, I think today it's very popular and easy to say, well, the healthcare system is broken, but it's not broken for a lot of people. And that's why it's still here. And the way it's designed. Isn't broken like it works for a lot of people.

[00:53:44] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And I'm not talking about generally, I'm not talking about patients. And I think it's really important to be clear. Right about that. Because I think we can talk a lot about, I mean, that connects to what we're saying, right about, about let's say, physicians taking ownership or nurses taking ownership, but really [00:54:00] anybody patients taking ownership, public health officials taking ownership,It's important to see that the system is the way it is because it works for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean it's working for the masses.

[00:54:11] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And so we need to put that out there.

[00:54:13] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. No, I always say that the healthcare system works exactly as it was designed. It works perfectly, but the problem is it doesn't work perfectly to create health, right? We're seeing those statistics. We're getting sicker and sicker as a society. Right.

[00:54:29] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And it's not, [00:54:30] it's not designed to do that and it's not supposed to do that.

[00:54:32] Dr. Anoop Kumar: And that's where power comes in. It's really important that I think we physicians talk about this and that patients and the public hears this. You know, it's not that the system is broken. It's that it's working like it's supposed to work. And if it's take, if it's not giving health and if it's taking away power, then we need to stand up and do something differently.

[00:54:54] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Healthcare reform and policy change is not going to do it. It is never going to do it because [00:55:00] Policy and politicians are controlled, they're, they're, they're motivated by the same forces that have created the system. See, so we can keep on hoping for health care reform and policy changes, that's never, ever going to get it done.

[00:55:14] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Because that comes from the same place as the system, and that's designed to work as it is working. So there's a fundamental, Ethos of power that we need to get sensitive to that we need to become sensitive to and I think that's actually the key [00:55:30] to going Beyond, you know, if you say nutrition movement people are like, oh, yeah lifestyle changes prevention, you know There are these that kind of marketing buzzwords, you know, it's lifestyle.

[00:55:39] Dr. Anoop Kumar: It's prevention. No, it's power. It's power Please understand this this isn't just lifestyle prevention because then it's boring and then you might as well just do it This is about power. This is about your power. This is about taking your power. You know, what is the word, calling your power, commanding your power.

[00:55:57] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Because if you don't do that, [00:56:00] somebody will take it from you. And that is what is happening today. And it's really important that we're clear eyed about that.

[00:56:05] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Absolutely. Well, Anup, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for spending your time with us. If people want to find more about you, where can they find you?

[00:56:15] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Healthrevolution. org is where we are now, where you can get a whole range of perspectives on health and more about this. And we are working on. Creating a new platform to do this. So stay tuned.

[00:56:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love it. Thank you so much. Okay. Awesome. [00:56:30] Thank you so much for being here. It was nice to chat with you.

[00:56:32] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Yeah.

[00:56:33] Dr. Anoop Kumar: Likewise.

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