Dr. Katie Deming [00:00:03]:On today's episode, I am thrilled to be joined by professor Gerald Pollack from the University of Washington. And doctor Pollock is the author of The 4th Phase of Water and a researcher who has spent his career studying the 4th phase of water, also known as exclusion zone or EZ Water. He's also the editor of the journal Water and is the organizer of the water conference that is held annually, where water experts from around the world come to share their findings and research about water.

So I know you are going to love this episode. Doctor Pollock is Charming and very intelligent, but also explains things in a way that makes it EZ to understand and also Schnabel. This episode, I'm just gonna warn you, is a little bit longer than my typical episodes. Normally, they run anywhere from, like, 30 minutes at the most. But I'm choosing to release it all in 1 episode because I think you are gonna find tremendous value from listening to.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:01:17]:
So here you go. I am thrilled today to have professor Gerald Pollack from University of Washington here to speak about water. So, Jerry, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:01:34]:
Happy to be with you.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:01:35]:
How did you become interested in water in the 1st place? Like, where did this all start for you?

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:01:40]:
Oh my goodness. I was actually, I I spent 2 decades or two and a half decades of my career Studying something entirely different. We were interested in the molecular mechanism of muscle contraction. One day, A Hungarian visitor to my laboratory arrived with his wife. I picked him up at the airport. And on the way driving to my house where I usually, put up People who are joining the lab until they can find the place. He said to me, you know, there's a symposium that's taking place in in Hungary, and you should go. I said, why should I go? He said, well, you know, this this commemorates the life of a distinguished biophysicist, And his interests ranged between encompassed studies of water and studies of muscle contraction.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:02:34]:
He said to me, they've got lots of people, there presenting on water, but they have nobody presenting on muscle contraction. And the ideas of this Biophysicist whose name was Ernst. That's his family name. He said, you should go and talk about muscle contraction. So I went. I talked about muscle contraction, and I think it went reasonably well. But what opened my eyes Was listening to all of these people who were talking about water and the importance of water in biology, Especially one, Gilbert Ling. I'd heard of Gilbert Ling, but I really didn't know a lot of his work until it was presented and until Until the evidence was presented, not only by him, but by perhaps a dozen other people who had been invited and presented.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:03:26]:
And Albert Ling was no ordinary scientist. He was chosen. This was the 1st cohort of young scientists invited from China. So they looked all over China and they found 1 physicist who went on to win a Nobel Prize, 1 chemist Who my student tells me also won a Nobel Prize, but the first was more distinguished because he was famous for, at age 90, approximately, marrying his translator who was age 30. So it spread all over China. Okay. And so Ghibelline was a biologist, and by all means, he should have won a Nobel Prize too, at least 1, maybe 2, because His his work was just so foundational. And the essence of his work was that inside the cell, the water is not like like This water, uh-huh, which I should be drinking more of, keeps you healthy.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:04:21]:
But he said the molecules are ordered like soldiers at attention. It's like a kind of like a liquid crystal, and I was impressed. I was impressed not only by Gilbert Ling's, reasoning and his Presentation but also his evidence and the evidence of all the others. I was so impressed that I I I just couldn't sleep. It was It was so interesting because, you know, if he was right about this stacking of water molecules And and, you know, the stacking is simple to to envision because if water molecules are like a dipole, You've got plus at one end and minus at the other end. So you could imagine that here's a dipole of minus and plus and the next one, minus Plus could stack atop the first one, and it could go on and on. So Gilbert was saying that in biology, all cells are filled with this kind of water. They're not filled with ordinary water.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:05:17]:
I thought, my goodness, if this guy is right, and it sure seemed that he was right. This is so important for all of biology and medicine that I I I simply can't let this go. At the same time, you know, I I was a little concerned. I do have a tendency to get enthusiastic rather easily. Maybe I'm too naive. I I I don't know. So so I got one of his books, and I gave it to some of my students who might be interested in this subject, And their responses were uniform. This is amazing.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:05:51]:
And if this guy is right, all the biology has to be rethought. And So, you know, I couldn't help but immerse myself, basically change fields, because I'd been in muscle contraction. I I said pretty much what I what I had to say. People didn't pay a whole lot of attention, but everybody, Practically, everybody in the field had my book on muscle contraction, but they didn't read it. I I remember one incident going to someone's office And they point out, here's your book. And they opened it, and it sort of cracked open, never been opened before. So, anyway, I I decided I have to move into this field because it's underappreciated and it's critically important. So the first thing I did was to write a book Called Sales, Gels, and the Engines of Life.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:06:42]:
And the purpose or theme of the book was to present Gilbert Ling's ideas In a way that could be understood by people. Now Gilbert, brilliant as as he was, he figured everybody was just as brilliant as he, and He'd sit down at the at the typewriter or a word processor. He's been around for a while. He died, by the way, a few years ago at age 100. He he had the habit of sitting down and and writing, and the word editing was not in his vocabulary. So his books were really tough, and and I decided that it's not that I have so much Talent, but but I I I I could write in a way that I thought was palatable, was clear. So I wrote a book, and and Gilbert Ling hated it. He thought, first of all, I didn't quote him Enough.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:07:35]:
I think he must have expected me to have quoted to mention his name in every paragraph of the book. I thought it was clear that this book Was basically a representation of his his work in a in an attempt to clarify his work. And I think it succeeded, you know, with reviews. Reviews were mixed. Some some people some people said this is nonsense, and we all know that Gilbert Ling that he's a crackpot And therefore, any any book that attempts to describe his ideas must be worthless. That was at one One side. On the other side, really positive reviews. There was a guy from Harvard, and therefore, we must take it seriously.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:08:18]:
If it's from Harvard, you know how it goes. He said, this is a 304 page preface to the future of cell biology. I like that one better. But at any rate, that's how I got started. That was perhaps a a long response to a a short question, but I was totally transformed, and then we began to do experimental work. Well, just as a suffix to that, which, by the way, confirmed Some of of Gilbert Ling's ideas, but actually went on to show that some of his ideas were not exactly on target And and that those not on target ideas, I think I think we got it right, but, you know, there's been pushback, Are really important.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:09:02]:
Yeah. No. I well, and I love hearing that because I think it's you know, for myself including, it's like There are events that just happen that all of a sudden just totally changed the trajectory of our career and our lives, and I love hearing that story from you about how you became fascinated with water. So I'm wondering if you can go into Scribing, what is it that you found in your experiments when you started studying water, and what is the 4th phase of water?

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:09:32]:
The 4th phase of water is, as Gilbert Ling has suggested, an ordered form of water So the molecules are not in in in this stuff here, the molecules, they're bouncing around at a fierce rate. They're randomly disposed and Bouncing around. The molecules are ordered, but in a in a different way than Gilbert Ling was was suggesting. The question you asked is what What did we find? How did we find it with Gilbert Ling? He said that the molecules are ordered like a liquid crystal. And we know that crystals, Pure crystals tend to exclude extraneous molecules because they couldn't be pure if they contained, Contaminants or or whatever. So we were we were looking for an experimental preparation where if we put Molecules are particles in the water. There should be a a region where this structure exists, a liquid crystalline structure where Where the particles are excluded. And that's the way we started.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:10:36]:
So in a chamber, we put water with suspended particles, little Spheres called microspheres. And then we had plunked in a gel, a hydrogel, a water based gel. And we looked in the microscope, and we found that Next to the surface of this gel, this hydrophilic surface, that is water loving surface, the particles started to disappear And and they disappeared for for a region that by molecular standards is really huge. It was a couple of 100 micrometers, A few tenths of a of a millimeter. Later, we found situations with almost a full millimeter And even longer in some extreme cases. So it's a lot of water seemed to be, organized. Of course, that wasn't proof That the water in this so called exclusion zone, which we we called it, has the order that was implied by Gilbert Ling's work, but it's certainly compatible with that. And when we started more and more, we we found more than a a dozen Properties that we measured in this exclusion zone that differed from ordinary liquid water.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:11:48]:
So it was it was It's clear, and other people have confirmed it, that this is something different. This is not not just liquid water that we were looking at. So it has a few properties that I think are important, and and one of them is the electrical charge. Ordinary water has no charge, but when we stuck electrodes into this exclusion zone, what we we later called the 4th phase water because everything was different, about it, different from ordinary water. We suck on the electrode, and we found, typically, That this zone has negative charge. Now if you start with liquid water, which is neutral, and you see a zone with negative charge, you ask, where are the positive charges? You know, because the sum of the 2 has to equal 0. That has to equal neutrality. And we found that the positive zone was right next to the negative zone.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:12:43]:
And so you've got negative zone right next to the gel or or other nucleating Surface. We've studied so many of them. A negative charge. And beyond that, in in the steel liquid water, we have positive charge. Negative, positive, that's a battery. Batteries contain energy, potential energy. And we found, indeed, we We could stick 1 electrode in the negative exclusion zone, another electrode in the positive region, and we could draw currents enough to light an LED lamp. So so proof of principle exists that, indeed, this is an energy source.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:13:21]:
And who knows what this could Portend for the for the future because, you know, we're all interested in energy. And in biology, in particular, if you have this kind of What Gilbert Ling called structured water. We call it 4 phase water or EZ water, exclusion zone, EZ EZ to remember. Easy. You've got a source of energy in the cell. Now all of us all of us know, quote, unquote, that the cell's Energy comes from the high energy phosphate bond of ATP. This represents another energy source. And we We don't know how much is contributed by this and how much is contributed by ATP.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:14:02]:
In fact, ATP is a bit more controversial than And most people recognize, if you happen to look at Gilbert Ling's website, he describes about the hydrolysis of the ATP. He said He recounts that this was found by a prominent chemistry group, I think, maybe 80 years ago. But soon after that, Another chemistry group equally prominent said is wrong. They made a mistake, a simple arithmetic error. There is no such thing as a high energy phosphate bond in ATP. And what what Ling points out is this is a controversy, but the controversy has never been pursued. So we don't know whether the original finding is right or whether the critique is right. And if the critique is right, then where does the energy come from? We found another potential energy source, And that is the the charge that exists in the exclusion zone.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:15:01]:
Okay. So 1 more just 1 more thing in in the description. You know, you can't get energy from nothing. The only way you can get energy is some other energy has to convert to that energy. That's the way it it works in in physics and chemistry, and, I I myself have been quite skeptical of Some of, quote, facts that we understand in physics and chemistry, but this one makes sense to me. So where does the energy come from to create this battery Or to build order. In in order to build order, you need you need energy. So we found that it comes from light, and not visible light, but infrared light.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:15:44]:
It was actually an undergraduate student who found that I had been scratching my head For several years trying to figure out, you know, where's the energy source? You you can't take a a chamber and, you know, plug it into the receptacle in the wall. It's not but it's gotta come from somewhere, and we couldn't figure out where. And there was this young undergraduate student in the laboratory, and he was Fiddling around with his chamber, looking at exclusion zones, and I can't I can't recall exactly what his the objective was of his prod project, but there was a lamp sitting right next to him, a gooseneck lamp. And he took the lamp, and he shined it on the chamber. And he called me in to take a look at where he had been shining the light. The exclusion zone grew enormously. And so, you know, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if you shine light, an exclusion zone grows. So the energy, apparently, is coming from light.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:16:43]:
We weren't satisfied with with this. We wanted to find out which wavelengths of light, and so we did experiments and published them. And we looked at a large span of wavelengths, including the visible wavelengths and shorter wavelengths, ultraviolet, And longer wavelengths in the infrared, nothing had any significant effect except when we got to red, we began to see some Expansion. And we went beyond red, longer wavelength to infrared. Wow. We we we could find Ten times expansion with a very weak infrared light. Amazing. So it was it was pretty clear That it came from infrared light.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:17:25]:
Infrared light was was the source. A lot of people wonder about infrared light. They they know that If they look at the toaster, you know, if you push it down, the coils are glowing, bright orange and generating heat, And they say that's infrared light. Infrared energy is coming from there and the same with your oven, infrared energy. But in fact, It's all over the place. If you were to turn off all the lights in your room and your eyes can't See anything? Your phone can't record anything? But if you had a camera whose sensor is not sensitive to visible light But sensitive to infrared light, you you get a beautiful image of everything, your glasses, your microphone, the plants, the closet, and back, Because everything is generating infrared light, originally from the sun. The sun, by the way, approximately 50% of The sunlight is in the infrared range. That's why the sun feels feels warm.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:18:26]:
And also, that's that's why the military uses it as a night light Or as a as a night detector because, you know, you could see the tanks and the guns and and the people, the enemy. What else? So Infrared light is all over the place and infrared light is the energy that that creates The order and the charge separation that exists in exclusion zone and and beyond. So that's where the energy comes from. And Since it's always around, it means that whenever you have the right situation, which means water sitting next to a hydrophilic surface, You're gonna get EZ growth. And that's why I said it's just it's not just biology. It's way beyond biology. It exists in the clouds, for example. Exists in subterranean aquifers where there's a lot of water beneath the surface of the Earth, especially in the mantle of the Earth.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:19:23]:
So those those are those are some of the properties of EZ Water. It's charged, battery like, and the energy for charging this battery Comes from infrared light. It's a bit like photosynthesis. The first step of photosynthesis is light is coming in, And the first step is is that water is broken into minus and plus. Very similar. And, You know, it's occurred to us that that photosynthesis that the first step of photosynthesis may indeed be sort of a special case Of the generality that that we found. One of one of the issues in photosynthesis brought to mind by a Brazilian Colleague, Marco Cecilotti, who raised the question. Everybody agrees that the first step is that water molecules in the presence of light separate into plus and minus.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:20:17]:
Right? H plus, o h minus. But think about it. Why should they separate? One's positive. One's negative. If anything, they should come together. They shouldn't right. And that question has never been answered. So it is possible That the first step of photosynthesis is very much similar to what we found, a kind of special case that maybe is optimized because nature usually Optimizes processes.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:20:43]:
I actually I love that. And I think one of the things that particularly for me and and my listeners on this is, you know, interested in how do we create optimal health in the body. And obviously, this has implications all over, you know, not just in biology as you explained, But I'm wondering if you can explain why in the human body should we care about this structured water and and what role that's playing. And, obviously, we're hearing that infrared is the source, which is very interesting because as a doctor, everything that I was taught, and as an oncologist, is to stay away from the sun and and all of this, which I'm learning, all of these things that I had been taught that maybe aren't correct in the in the way that they had been taught to us in medical school and then, you know, us as doctors then teaching our patients these things that we learned, but I'm wondering if you can explain what the implications are and how this EZ water plays a role in the living organism. And it's funny because I'm Actually afraid to use the word cell after talking to doctor Cowan, but I know for this circumstance, we'll we'll assume that there are cells and that we can talk about it in that way, but I'm wondering if you can talk about, you know, what is the role that this EZ water is potentially playing in our body that is related to our health and well-being.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:22:07]:
Sure. Okay. We've we've done quite a bit of work in in that area and have some, I think reasonably well developed ideas, which, you know, I think might be right, but then again, one never knows what's the old saying that Even even most beautiful theories can can be torn down by one ugly fact. You know? So one one never knows. But, Okay. So our evidence suggests that that the cell is filled with EZ water. And by by the way, EasyWater has negative charge, and the sales have negative charge. And I've argued that the reason the sale has negative charge Has nothing to do with pumps or channels or any anything of the like.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:22:51]:
It simply has to do with the fact that you've got negatively charged contents inside the cell, And, therefore, the cell is negative. Okay. So the cell is filled with now EZ water is like a crystal. In the crystal, it's kind of stable. Not much happens. And and so in that that book, the Sales, Gels, and the Engines of Life, the one That was meant to, clarify Gilbert Ling's ideas, but it went on to suggest more. It went on to suggest that in order to function, The cell needs to to move from this structured state where, you know, largely nothing happens. It needs to move it needs to undergo a phase, so called phase transition, in which the water changes from the Structured EZ water to ordinary liquid water and then back again after the action is over.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:23:45]:
So for example, in a muscle cell, In order for a muscle cell to contract, the cell needs to undergo a change from the EZ water to liquid water and and that transition activates, basically, activates the muscle to do its thing. And the proteins undergo a conformational change, but only when the water transitions to liquid water from the EZ water from the crystalline state where Which is very stable. Doesn't can't nothing happens really and then back again. So if your cell is not filled with EZ water, In other words, if the electrical potential, instead of minus 80 or minus 90 millivolts, is only minus 20 or minus 30 millivolts, It's a reflection of the fact that there's not sufficient EZ water there. And then this transition From EZ to ordinary water can't can't occur in a in a a normal way because there's not enough of it. And so the cell is therefore dysfunctional. In serious cases, it's pathological. So what you wanna do, the bottom line to maintain health, is he want to make sure there's an adequate supply of EZ water and, therefore, a substantial negative electrical potential.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:25:04]:
This is very important. So, the question is, well, gee, what do you do to maintain the the level of EZ water? You you can you can do a number of things. May I discuss?

Dr. Katie Deming [00:25:19]:
Absolutely, please.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:25:20]:
Yeah. Okay. Well, the first thing is you can do more of this. You can take it and drink it. And some of this water transitions in in your body with lots of Infrared energy coming from the core of your body and from outside, it the water some of this water transitions into EZ water and therefore helps To fill your cells. It's essentially cellular hydration we're talking about. Everyone knows that hydration is important. That's the first expedient And maintaining your health is drink a lot of water.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:25:50]:
You know, you hear this so often, but but this explains why It's critically important and why I need to learn to drink more myself. Okay. That's the first. Second is If you go out in the garden and besides enjoying the grandeur and beauty of your backyard, you take some of the freshly grown leaves, Bring them in the house and crush them and squeeze out the juice from it and drink the juice. So what's the juice? The juice is From the inside of freshly grown and thereby healthy plant cells, and it's just filled with EZ water. So by doing that, you're directly drinking EZ water. You can bypass the step of converting that, Converting ordinary water into EZ water, you're just drinking it. So what you need, you're getting directly from your garden.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:26:43]:
And I think that's the reason why I've heard from health practitioners that their patient comes and it doesn't matter what they do this juicing, and a few months later, Whatever their symptoms were have either reduced or disappeared. It seems to be very effective. Okay. So that's 2. 3rd one is to go out in in the sun. Yeah. You you've mentioned that the theme is to avoid going out in the sun, but If you go out in the sun, the sun contains infrared energy. And you know because you live in Portland and the weather in Portland is not so different from the weather in Seattle.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:27:17]:
In the wintertime, it can be pretty gray. And when the sun comes out, there are smiles on people's faces. So why why the smiles? Well, the the usual interpretation is it's a psychological effect. When you go from darkness to light, it feels good. It feels Positive, and so you might smile. And that's probably true. However, there's a more direct and understandable way, and that is When the sun comes out, the sun's got lots of infrared energy that's being input into us. So the sun's energy penetrates through our skull To our brain and builds EZ water in the cells in our brain.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:28:00]:
And by building EZ water, it returns our brain cells To their pristine nature which existed, you know, when we were born. And the default state is one of Happiness and satisfaction, except when the baby cries, happiness and satisfaction, and so we feel the same. And if if you doubt That infrared energy can penetrate through your skull. I can tell you that that there's a kind of imaging, infrared imaging of the brain It occurs. So the infrared source is outside the skull. It obviously penetrates through the skull because it gets scattered by your brain And then comes out again through your skull to be collected and you can get an image of the brain that way. Therefore, it's Impossible that the infrared energy can't penetrate through your skull. It can.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:28:47]:
Otherwise, you get no image. Yeah. So so the the infrared energy builds EZ water, and you'll feel Better because the cell is your brain cells are returning to normal. A 4th is, you might say, the extreme of that, and that is The sauna, or as the Finns say, a sauna. And I myself had I I must share One experience, I was in Finland, and above the Arctic Circle, there was a conference. And I was suffering serious jet lag, And after a day's presentation, there was a party somewhere. And by the time 10 PM or so came, All I wanted to do was to go back to the hotel, plop into my bed, and sleep. And so after the dinner dinner was over and such, The organizer got up to the microphone and I was sure that he was gonna say, okay, people get on the buses.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:29:40]:
We're going back to the hotels. But he didn't say that. He said, okay. It's now time for the sauna. And I I'm thinking, oh my god. I I I really don't want all I wanna do is go back to the hotel. So I decided, okay, everybody's going to the sauna, so I'll do that too. And I gotta tell you, after 20 minutes or or or so, shower, I was like new.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:30:04]:
I was ready to To begin the day, that's how the transformation was. So what's going on there? You know, in the sauna, it's heat. Doesn't matter whether it's dry heat or moist heat, it's heat. And heat is roughly equivalent to infrared energy. It's infrared energy that produces the heat. So you're exposing yourself to infrared energy. And as I've said quite a few times, It's the infrared energy that builds EZ water and so wherever in your body you have a shortage of EZ water and therefore some dysfunction, pain, weariness, whatever. This is gonna restore it.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:30:43]:
So I think that's how that's how it works. And and while I'm thinking of it, I I must mention, well, I was giving some talks in Germany. And there was a doctor who approached me, and he told me about infrared energy and cancer. He said, I deal with with a lot of young women, he said, who have cancer somewhere on on their face. And they don't want surgery because it it it's gonna ruin their the way their face looks. And he said he uses infrared energy, And he said it's amazing that the cancer just disappears when he uses infrared energy. And I remember that encounter with A physician because, for me, it makes sense. You're basically building EZ water and bringing the the cells, let's say, cancerous cells, Back to back to normal.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:31:35]:
Okay. 5th one is, the agents that are known to be good for health. So for example, In Ayurvedic times, we're talking 5000, 10000 years ago in in India, you know, they were It's just as concerned about their health as we are now, and and they found that certain substances, herbs, and such were were good good for health. For example, turmeric. You know, there's a lot of hype about turmeric now and but it it it it's been known for more than 5000 years that turmeric is good for health. In fact, It seems to be good for practically whatever ails you. We we're discussing with one of my former postdocs How how is it possible turmeric can exhibit such diverse effects? You know? And one idea is Is that, you know, maybe there are receptors for turmeric in different organs of our body. And the other Other, hypothesis is that it affects the turmeric affects something like water, which is present in every organ and, ism of the body.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:32:44]:
Now that's a simpler hypothesis, and therefore, according to the principle of Occam's razor, you know, where simplicity prevails, is likely to be correct, and so we thought, is it possible that turmeric builds EZ water? We tested it, And we found that it does, that modest amount of turmeric, similar to the quantities that you'd have inside your body, Build EZ water. We found the same, for basil, holy basil, which is also a substance that's known to promote health. It also builds EZ water and several other substances we tested that are known to promote health. Ghee, for example, You know, clarified butter, which has been used since Ayurvedic times and is even used today, we found that It it expands. It grows the e z even more dramatically than any of the others. We could find e z's on the size on the order of A millimeter or so, which is, by molecular standards, practically infinite, and Guy does it. So, Also, to check whether, you know, we're not fooling ourselves, we took a poison, see what that does, and the the poison was glyphosate, Which, as you know, is a weed killer that and perhaps a people killer that's sprayed on on fruits and vegetables and etcetera, kills weeds, so we wondered. So we examined that, and we found that it never expands e z.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:34:18]:
All it does is diminishes the e z At every concentration that we tested of course, if you go to vanishingly small concentration, it has no effect. But the more The higher the concentration, the more the effect. Oh, within very low, doses. So we're pretty confident about the result. And So this is another way to keep healthy by putting some turmeric in in your food and or basil or ghee or Or whatever. We studied various substances and they build EZ water. So that's another way to keep healthy, build EZ water through These herbs. The 6th one is grounding yourself, or as the Europeans say, earthing yourself.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:35:03]:
Now why What's that gonna do? Not everybody knows this, but the Earth is negatively charged. Now I didn't I didn't know this until about, 10, 15 years ago, I studied electrical engineering, and no professor ever even hinted that If you take a plug and plug it into the receptacle, that that 3rd pronged, which is the the grounding prong, Connected to anything other than bland neutrality. So when a Russian colleague was just about to leave and we started Chatting together, he said, you you know about the Earth's electric field. And I said, Andre, You you must be talking about the Earth's magnetic field. I never heard of the Earth's electric field. He said, haven't heard of it? You know, the ionosphere is positively charged And the Earth is negatively charged. It's like plates of a capacitor with plus at at on one plate and minus on the other plate and an electric field that runs perpendicular to the surface of those plates. I said, Andre, you're crazy.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:36:08]:
You must be on some kind of drug or something. I never heard of that. He said, I I can't believe that you never heard of it because every middle school student in Russia knows that the Earth is negatively charged. I confirm, by the way, it's true. I also confirm that it's no longer true because in speaking to, at least one Young Russian came to this country. She never heard of it, but the older ones knew of it. So I I went home scratching my head. I couldn't believe that, You know, as as someone who studied for 4 years electrical engineering, I never heard this.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:36:43]:
Next day, I come in into the lab And some young student opens Feynman's lectures, Richard Feynman, the great Nobel laureate. His lectures are read by practically every graduate student in physics, at least in this country. He was a hero and also Good sense of humor and presented things clearly, so a lot of people read it. So he opened to volume 2, chapter 9, and and there was An array of evidence supporting the Earth's negative electrical negative charge net negative charge. And I simply hadn't heard of it, but it's so important for for many reasons. So if you connect yourself to this negative Earth, you're connecting yourself To a vast array of electrons, of negative charges. And so if you're if you connect yourself electrically to the Earth Like, for example, walking barefoot on wet grass or the edge of the beach near near the water or so. You're you're gonna absorb these electrons.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:37:47]:
Electrons will go wherever there's not enough negative charge. And, so what's the consequence Of these electrons coming into your body, we found in the laboratory that if you take water and you put electrons into the water And by sticking electrical wires, 1 negative, 1 positive, that next to that negative electrode, EZ water will build. And so if similarly, if you connect your body to the Earth, negative charge from the Earth will Come directly into your body and build e z. So wherever you're missing e z, you're gonna get e z. And I think that's the reason why It's now very well established that, again, it doesn't matter what your issue is or your problem is, if you earth yourself or ground yourself, You'll get better or feel better. And number 7 is slightly more complicated, but you still can do it if you like, and that is hyperbaric oxygen therapy. My former postdoc, and this guy went to work for a hyperbaric oxygen company. And he said, you know, Jerry, this is pretty interesting because it looks Like, hyperbaric oxygen is good for so many different illnesses.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:38:58]:
It was originally Discovered to help cure wounds that couldn't be dealt with any other way. You get in this chamber with high oxygen, high pressure, And the wound heals. That was used for soldiers, but he said it can be beneficial for any of a wide number of of different different issues. So we were inspired to test it, to test to see whether high oxygen Or high pressure or both build EZ water. And we published a paper on it and sure enough, they both do. High oxygen Increases the size of EZ and high pressure does the same. So if you get yourself into a hyperbaric oxygen chamber, You're exposed to 2 agents, each of which builds EZ water. And when the 2 are acting together, you get a a a substantial Increase of EZ water, and you feel better.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:39:54]:
So whatever whatever has been ailing you should improve.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:39:58]:
You know, there's so many things here as I look at this list that, you know, I think about the Gerson diet, which is mainly juicing, and people have really So stated that with veganism, but it's like they were drinking basically straight EZ water, you know, with this huge amounts of juicing. And also Reading Tom Cowan's work, he talked about how Gerson was really looking at the charge across the cells and thinking it was related to the sodium potassium pump, which Basically, from Gilbert Ling's work we know is has been disproven, but that information continues to go on. But it's like I think about the Gerson diet, and I'm like, oh, this is EZ water that is being used to help heal people with cancer. And then the hyperbaric oxygen is so interesting because as a radiation oncologist, One of the ways to treat radiation damage is through hyperbaric oxygen, and actually now I think so differently about radiation. In radiation oncology, it's one of the few disciplines in medicine that you have to take advanced studies in cellular biology and radiation physics. Right? So we have to do 2 years of cell and cancer biology as well as radiation physics, and, you know, we're taught that with radiation you know, we're we're taught that we're all directing towards the DNA. But when you look at the mechanism of radiation damage to DNA, one of the mechanisms is direct damage to the DNA, but the second is by breaking apart the water and creating free radicals. But I'm actually seeing now that probably the radiation is damaging The EZ water in the cells is having an impact there, but hyperbaric oxygen is one of the ways that we treat that.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:41:35]:
And this is, like, all makes sense to me When you start to understand this idea of EZ water and that our bodies are, you know, 99% of the molecules are water, that If this structuring of the water really is connected to the optimal functioning of ourselves, it just it for me is is mind blowing. So I'm I'm so excited just to have you here and have you list these things as actually really tangible and helpful for people to understand. K. What are the things that they can do in their life that can help, you know, with the creation and building of this EZ Water. And I also loved you were talking about muscle contraction, but, basically, the function of the cells relying on this transition between bulk water and EZ water, and it's really important. But one of the questions that's coming up as you're talking about all of this, and you also already alluded to ATP, but Tom Cowan talks about how ATP may may not be like energy. We may not Be actually using the ATP as energy in the way that most of us has have been taught about ATP and its production and use. He talks about how ATP is basically like, when you create ATP, ATP then binds to the ends of the proteins in the cells.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:42:50]:
It's almost like forning a blind that changes the, you know, blinds to a position that creates the structuring of the water. And I'm wondering if you can talk about that because I think that it ties into this question about cancer. You know, A lot of the things we're understanding now about cancer is it's tied to metabolism and improper functioning of the mitochondria and creation of ATP, But if ATP is really related to structuring of the water rather than energy creation, I think that's just another piece of this puzzle that that helps, at least in my mind, Understand why this is so important with cancer in particular.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:43:31]:
Sure. So several you know, you mentioned a whole bunch of of items. First of all, The idea of ATP binding. So Gilbert Ling was talking about he called them cardinal sides, I I think it it was. And the idea is that if you have the highly negatively charged ATP binding to some point, it creates a locus of negative charge. And that locus of negative charge should be good for building what he called structured water, what we would call EZ water. So, yes, that could be That could be a a role or the role of of ATP. That's quite true.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:44:10]:
And then I I'd like To talk about the cancer issue because we've been dealing with that issue at least in a conceptual way. It turns out I'm not I'm not sure if you're aware. It turns out that the electrical potential of cancer cells, You know, for most cells, most human cells, the electrical potential is minus 80 or 90 or a 100 millivolts. For cancer cells, it's only minus 10 or minus 15 or minus 5. There are many many studies, Mostly 50 years ago when it was commonplace to stick microelectrodes, parenthesis invented by the same Gilbert Ling, To stick them in cells and and measure. And it was quite surprising among those many scientists who studied it that The electrical potential was only minus 10 or minus 15. So what does that mean? According to our studies, it means there's not much EZ water. That's the reason.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:45:11]:
So, therefore, if that if that's true, what happens when you have a low electrical potential? When you have a low electrical potential, there are many many cells that actually keep dividing, and they also have very low electrical potential. And there was a guy named Clarence Kuhn 50 years ago who was who was studying this, and he found what causes cells To divide as cancer cells do even in in normal cells. And he investigated, and he found that if you take the normal electrical potential And if you forcibly reduce it to minus 10 instead of minus 80 or minus 90, it'll undergo mitosis, So it divides. And on the contrary, if you raise the electrical potential, the magnitude of electrical potential, if you raise it to Minus a 120 or so. It'll never divide. So in cancer, it appears to be that the the signal For division is the very thing that characterizes cancer cells, the small electrical potential. And therefore, it follows. If you want to reverse the cancer, one way to do it is is to build EZ water, which is responsible for the electrical potential.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:46:24]:
And therefore, the implication is if we're if we're on target, it it is that one way to to treat cancer is to try to build EZ water. And so all of the expedients that I I mentioned should be somewhat or very effective in treating cancer. And I I I I gave 7 of them. And in some cases, it's already been demonstrated that that is the case. So it's a It's a different approach to cancer. It has not much directly related to oncogenes or Or that it's it's a very simple observation that exists about the nature of sales.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:47:05]:
Yeah. No. I think that's really helpful of just kind of clarifying. And can you speak to the so with the ATP, is that still that's still a question about whether ATP is It's really driving the structuring of this water versus an energy source. That's an open question. Is that correct?

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:47:24]:
I think that's correct. Yeah. And as scientists, we really are obliged to answer this question, but it hasn't been resolved. Most people think it has been resolved, that it's a fact, but, You know, that ignores the paper that suggested that it's not true.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:47:40]:
I know that the audience is gonna have this question, and, actually, I've heard you answer this question. So I know what your I I I sense what your answer might be, but I'm I'm still gonna ask it. So, you know, people wanna know, well, what water should I be drinking, and should I be drinking Structured water.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:47:56]:
I have an idea, but I don't know if my idea is correct. And the idea is that you should be drinking EZ or structured water because It's really important to build structure in the cells of your body. On the other hand, you know, this is theoretical and, it may be entirely wrong. I think it's right, but it may be entirely wrong. And and the way to deal with this is to actually actually experiment. For example, you take Patients who who have pancreatic cancer and and everything is the same, the 2 groups, but 1 group is, is given, regular tap water to drink. And the other 1 is given, as Gilbert Lingwood, a structured water. We'd say 4th phase water to drink and and you check the outcomes after 6 months and see if there's any difference.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:48:44]:
I I think that would be the sort of gold standard way to see Which water should I drink? And it should be done for for other pathologies as well to see if there's any difference in drinking EZ water versus Drinking ordinary water. Oh, by the way, when I say drinking EZ water, I don't mean pure EZ water because that's hard to get. I I mean water that contains some e z in it. That's the way to do it. And, you know, the pharmaceutical companies, they've got lots of money to spend. They may spend $100,000,000 testing a drug, But the people who are espousing the drinking of EasyWater, they don't have $1,000,000 or $100,000,000 at their disposal. I would think that an organization like the National Institutes of Health, there are so many people who are interested in water and so many people who are asking just that Question, which water should I drink? But NIH, virtually, the word water is, by the way, is like a foreign language to them. They never heard of water.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:49:44]:
Water is just Merely the background carrier of the more important molecules of life even though there's so much of it. You know, you mentioned 99%. And just to clarify that because I'm sure some of your listeners will be skeptical, we've heard 2 thirds. Right. Two thirds doesn't seem to correlate with 99%.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:50:05]:
Well, is it 2 thirds by volume, but 99% of the molecules? That's at least the way that I understood it.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:50:11]:
Yeah. Yes. Exactly. But when some people hear 99%, they think, oh, you know, that person doesn't know what they're talking about because we know it's Two thirds. That's 66, 67%, not 99%. But, yeah, if you line up all the molecules in the cell And count them 1 by 1. 99 more than 99 out of a 100 will be water molecules. And to think that 99 out of a 100 molecules don't do anything.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:50:36]:
You can think that if you like, but it seems to me to be to be, unlikely. And so, our experiments, our results, our thinking that water is by no means just the background carrier of the more important molecules of life, like proteins, nucleic acids, but it's central to everything that goes on inside the cell. It's a completely different philosophy, and, you know, I believe it's backed by a good deal of evidence.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:51:04]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So my follow-up Question to that and you can decide whether you wanna answer this or not because I know everyone wants to pin you down, like and I know you don't wanna endorse 1, but I'm just wondering what you do with Your water, what is your process for your top water in Seattle of what you're drinking?

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:51:21]:
Well, I There there are lots of different waters that I I have been drinking, and I don't know which one is is the best one. I Started drinking alkaline water. In Japan, it's very, very popular, and I've been drinking waters from A spring. I've been drinking waters that have been shown to reverse irreversible kidney pathologies. I saw the evidence, and I for a while, I was drinking that. There's also water from a spring in Idaho, And and this this spring has been visited for 100 of years by Native American chiefs who go there. If they have health problems, they go to this Idaho spring. They start drinking the water, and they get better.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:52:08]:
And recently, someone sent me a vortex Device. And you put you put water in, and there's a magnet in it. The magnet swirls, and the water swirls too. And I've I've been drinking that as well. Sometimes I drink ordinary tap water. So I'm not sure which which of those or or if any are really the appropriate ones. And and you're right. Without absolutely being certain that one water is superior to another, I I don't like to recommend any particular one because, you know, if we endorse 1, then many people think, oh, That guy must be getting paid by that company or something like that.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:52:49]:
Therefore, I don't trust any results that come from his laboratory. And that's One of the reasons why I I I don't like to take a position on which water without clear evidence.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:53:00]:
Yeah. No. And that makes sense. And that's I respect you so much for that. And I knew that that question, but I also know that people, you know, wanna know, will someone who studies this, what are the different types of water that you have drank, so thank you for answering that question. One of the things that we haven't talked about in this conversation yet, but this is Part of the reason why I was so attracted to your work is to you know, when I left Western medicine, I knew something was wrong, And I knew that you needed this more holistic approach of not just the physical things that we were doing to someone and what they were eating and that their lifestyle, but also the mental and emotional components of healing, that that was really important. And as I started to learn more about water and then, you know, looking at a MODO's data and looking looking at Veda Austin's work and and some of this other work that's looking at the impact of consciousness and our thoughts thoughts and emotions on water as well. For me, it started to all make sense.

Dr. Katie Deming [00:54:02]:
Like, oh, okay. There is science to explain maybe why all of these things are important when we talk about healing within the body. I'm wondering if you can speak just a little bit of that to give people some understanding of how emotions and thoughts may also be tied to the structuring of the EZ water. For

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:54:21]:
Well, we're actually studying that right right now. We, in a a special room, we we've got a container of water, And we invite healers, and they focus their attention on the water. And we measure before and after to see if the physical properties are are changed. So far, only preliminary data, and so I I can't say one way or the other. But all of this is is based on, the idea of so called water memory. And, of course, the the perhaps the most famous The person is is was Misaro Emoto, and and a lot of a lot of scientists are skeptical of of his data. What so, You know, what he would do is he would he would have, like, 50 petri dishes full of water, and he'd Focus his intention, positive intention, loving kindness, or appreciation, or whatever. He'd freeze the water, And he looked at the water crystals that form, and the claim was was that if the emotions were positive, the crystals were beautiful.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:55:27]:
If the emotions were negative, the crystals were ugly. And the reason the reason that he's criticized is not so much on his results but The way he obtained his results. So he would take 50 50 containers and he should he would choose the one cherry picking, the one that Showed what he wanted to show most clearly, and, you know, that's not a particularly scientific way. And and how he justified this Was that he claimed he was a spiritualist, not a scientist, but for scientists, doesn't work. And In Veda, Austin, her her approach is a little bit different from Imoto's, but but, again, it it has to do to with intentions and thoughts and how they influence the water, and she has clear evidence that it does. And also, She says it's absolutely repeatable. She's going to come to our water conference in October. It hasn't been the date hasn't been announced, but we're pretty sure it'll be In in October in Lisbon, if anybody wants to to come.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:56:32]:
Middle of October. Anyway so But then you you can also look at the data. And speaking of memory or influence of water, the data of Luc Montagnier, Who passed, unfortunately, a year ago. He would come to our water conference, every year for a decade. And and the most Controversial, I guess you might say, was his result on on a water memory, which, if correct, is really astonishing. He would take Two containers near each other. The 1st container contains DNA in an aqueous buffer and the next container contains pure, Pure water and both containers are well sealed, so there's no possible communication, or no contamination of 1 to the other. And his hypothesis was that the information from the DNA or from the water that surrounds the DNA is being transmitted somehow, in a way that's not obvious, to the water that was sitting nearby.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:57:35]:
Both are sealed. They're just sitting next to each other And exposed to, like, 50 Hertz or 60 Hertz or something like that to energize the system, and he tested his result by taking the water, Get rid of the d take the water and put the water in in the, reagents that are used in the PCR reaction, the same reaction That's used for COVID. And he goes through the steps and he gets new DNA. And the sequence of the DNA is the same As a sequence of the DNA that was sitting that had been sitting next to the water. Astonishing if true. Now it's now been repeated and confirmed By 3 different laboratories, 2 in Italy, 1 in China. And so if you take confirmation By independent laboratories as a measure of truth, it seems that his result is is true. And If true, you know, Tai won a Nobel Prize earlier for his work on, HIV.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:58:32]:
You know, you gotta take seriously what What what he's done and what the implications are. So I mentioned a large number of of investigators from Emoto as a spiritualist And even before him, Jacques Benbenisto. I I won't get into, but that's a really sad story of how he was taken down By the editor of the journal Nature for his unusual result from those 2 Nobel Laureate And many in between. And the evidence is overwhelming that there is some influence of our thoughts and our emotions To the water. In intuitively, unless you're invested deeply in conventional science, if you're open, It's entirely conceivable that this can be true. We know that that in general, people who have positive outlooks do better and have Fewer medical issues than those who are negative in in in their views. And and so that it kind of goes along with the findings of of Emoto And so yes. The answer is yes.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [00:59:37]:
And my own thought is that the crystal and EZ water itself can be modified by, your thoughts. And and there's a way that it can be modified changing you know, there are basically oxygens and hydrogens, and it turns out that any oxygen Has 5 different oxidation states. So if your thinking affects the oxidation state of Some of the oxygens that are in the e z, that that can have a serious impact on on On the EZ in the cell, and that could have an impact on the health of the of the cell. I've just glossed over What I could have presented in in in more detail so it becomes clearer. I I maybe it's it's not so clear at at the moment. But But EZ is EZ is a is a a substrate for storing information, and this and our cells are filled with it. And, therefore, Our sales should be replete with information. So, yes, I think you're on target when you're talking about the effect of Our thinking, our emotions on water, and indeed on health.

Dr. Katie Deming [01:00:48]:
Well, I'm so grateful for your Presentation of all this information in such a simple way for people to really start to think about this and understand. Because I think that What's so fascinating to me is water is life. Like, water is everything, and somehow we're like you said, the NIH just Does thinks of it as, you know, the carrier for the pharmaceuticals that we're gonna give, but it it's foundational to everything, and yet We're taught so, we know so little about it and I just am so grateful for you coming on here and sharing your expertise. And for me, I'm, You know, 20 years as a radiation oncologist and and really I'm learning I know so little. And it's exciting because because I I actually Think there's so much hope in that, that when we're open and curious to learning new things, you know, something like this opens up that I think just, For me is is opening my mind to thinking about everything, not only our living organism and how we're functioning, but also How we're designed to interact with our environment and in society, we've been kinda pulled away from that. And and and really coming back to ourselves and and the life that is is, you know, on this planet, which is basically the source of that life is water. So Thank you, professor Pollock, for being with us and gracing us with your presence. I I feel really privileged.

Dr. Katie Deming [01:02:14]:
And, also, I would love to have you share you know, you shared a little bit about waterconf.org, but where can people find you? Because I know people are gonna wanna learn more about your work. So you talked about the water comp .org, but where else can people find your work?

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [01:02:29]:
Well, I think first of all, the 2nd book, which I Never mentioned. It's called The 4th Phase of Water, and, much of the stuff that I was talking about today can be found in in that book. Another Another place, is our laboratory website at the University of Washington. It's pollock lab, One word.org. I I must admit that I haven't touched that website for a long time, and so it's Slightly out of date. There's a Facebook page that I don't deal with, but a couple of people who are associated with me deal with it. So those probably are the, best places to look. I would first check out the book, The 4th Phase of War.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [01:03:12]:
It's very popular. There you can find in, I think, simple language many of the things that I've been talking about today.

Dr. Katie Deming [01:03:18]:
I love it. And I've read the book and absolutely agree with that. So Thank you so much, professor Pollock, for being here.

Dr. Gerald H. Pollack [01:03:25]:
Thanks for those great questions, and much appreciated.

Dr. Katie Deming [01:03:29]:
Yeah. Absolutely.