Episode 111 | How One Feeding Habit Could Add Years to Your Dog’s Life with Dr. Maureen McMichael, Veterinary and Pet Health Specialist

[00:00:00] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Hello everyone. I'm Dr. Katie Deming, and this is The Born to Heal podcast where we explore holistic practices for cancer prevention and healing. Let's welcome Dr. Maureen McMichael, board certified veterinarian in emergency and critical care, and professor of 20 years, formerly a Texas A&M University, and now at Auburn University.

[00:00:22] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Welcome, Dr. McMichael. So nice to have you on the show.[00:00:25] Maureen McMichael: Thank you. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

[00:00:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So you know that I'm fascinated with fasting in humans, but I also understand that there are benefits for fasting animals. Can you tell us?

[00:00:38] Maureen McMichael: Sure. Oh goodness. So, you know, animals will naturally fast when they're sick.

[00:00:44] Maureen McMichael: And it's really interesting. There's not a lot of research on fasting in healthy animals. There's one paper where they looked at a 48 hour fast and they really were looking at leptin levels and a couple of other grin [00:01:00] levels, and they found some benefits to the 48 hour fast, but they were healthy animals.

[00:01:05] Maureen McMichael: So that's, it's kind of harder to, to deal with. In, in terms of the data. But you know, sick animals will fast for days, five days, six days, and there's there's a belief I think all across human and veterinary medicine that we have to feed them. If they're not eating, we have to shove tubes in them and, and push food.

[00:01:31] Maureen McMichael: And I, I don't think that's true. I think intuitively they know what they need and the best thing they can do probably is fast when they're sick. And I'll just tell you the nuance here. There was a paper that looked at animals that were sick and which ones. Were fed early and which ones were fed late, meaning three, three to five days after they got to the hospital, they were fed [00:02:00] or they were fed immediately, and the ones who were fed immediately did better.

[00:02:05] Maureen McMichael: But when you look back at the details of that paper, it was because they voluntarily ate, they did better because they came in with an appetite. Well, we all know that means they're probably feeling good as opposed to the ones that had no appetite for five days and then were given artificial nutrition or so.

[00:02:26] Maureen McMichael: So it's very interesting how some of the research, if you look back at it, probably does support fasting.

[00:02:32] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Interesting. I love that.

[00:02:34] Maureen McMichael: Some of the, the research that is very robust in veterinary medicine is time restricted eating or, caloric restriction. And so in 2002, there was a paper that took the, basically they took a number of litters of dogs as born newborns and separated them and randomized them.

[00:02:57] Maureen McMichael: So one group got normal. [00:03:00] Kibble and the other group got 25% less. Same food, same breeds, same litters, everything. And they followed these, it was 48 labs. And they actually, yeah, yeah. 48 labs. And they followed them for an entire life, like their entire lifespan, and they died natural deaths, you know, they lived in homes and the ones that had the 25% caloric restriction lived over two years longer.

[00:03:28] Maureen McMichael: They had significant decreases in the ill ailments of age. Uh, so osteoarthritis, heart disease, all of that, they were healthier, so they had a, a better health span. That was followed in 2016 by another paper, and this is, this should give people hope. It was 39 Labradors that were started at six years of age, so, so they didn't start anything, any intervention until six years of age.

[00:03:56] Maureen McMichael: At that point, they cut their feeding by [00:04:00] 25%. Those. That had their, their uh, feeding cut by 25% lived significantly longer. 28% of them reach what we would call geriatric or over 15.6 years of age. That, and in a Labrador that's really old. And so we do have good evidence for caloric restriction, and, and that's not, that, that does not include anything else in terms of health right there, there's nothing else included in that, just kibble and decreasing the kibble.

[00:04:33] Maureen McMichael: So I, I think a combination of decreased caloric intake, which I believe is achieved through fasting, ideally, it, it's a, a win-win.

[00:04:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love that. tell us who you are. Like how are you, you know, authoritative in this area to speak about animals and their health specifically?

[00:04:54] Maureen McMichael: So, so I did the traditional route.

[00:04:56] Maureen McMichael: Um, I grew up in New York City and, uh, I, [00:05:00] I had always wanted to be a vet, but it, it was, it didn't seem to be in the cards for me because I had a, a single mom. We were pretty poor and. I ended up going to a local community college, but I really wanted to be a vet and so I asked the community college how I could do this, and he said, you can't.

[00:05:20] Maureen McMichael: You can't from here. You're not getting in. The New York State College of Veterinary Medicine is Cornell University. He said, you'll never get into Cornell from here. So he said, your only chance would be to go to Columbia University. And so I went to Columbia. Columbia has a fabulous program for non-traditional students where they'll pretty much take you at, it's easy to get in, it's hard to stay in say that.

[00:05:45] Maureen McMichael: So then I got, I got to Cornell. I did the traditional training and I really fell in love with emergency medicine. And so after that I did an internship and then a three year residency in emergency critical care. And after that I [00:06:00] went for my first faculty position at Texas A&M University. And that is where I started to fall in love with working dogs.

[00:06:08] Maureen McMichael: And the whole idea of working dogs is you don't have fancy equipment, you're in the middle of the woods and there's an emergency and you've got to figure out what you're gonna do. And so I started really getting interested in that. And, um. And so I worked with some of the handlers and I, I started, and then I moved to the University of Illinois.

[00:06:32] Maureen McMichael: I was there 13 years and we did a lot of work with the police and the EMTs and all of the working dogs, and I really got interested in that. And then I started getting interested in the nutrition of these dogs because these are high working dogs there. And, and nutritionally they really have some pretty significant needs.

[00:06:50] Maureen McMichael: Then I came to Auburn, and Auburn has also has a, a pretty significant working dog area, uh, of research. And so I also became [00:07:00] interested there and probably somewhere when I was in Illinois, I started fasting. I. That's when I really saw the benefits. I absolutely love fasting. I think there's so much, and of course the Nobel Prize in 2016 went to the, the person who discovered autophagy, so it's obviously.

[00:07:21] Maureen McMichael: A thing. Yeah.

[00:07:23] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I didn't realize that actually, that your history is really in working dogs and, and that makes sense about the nutrition of working dogs is so important because they're working and when people are focused on the. Outcome of how animals are performing, you're gonna have really big interest on nutritionally what they're eating.

[00:07:45] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I love that. And I know personally, you know, your interest in fasting and that's kind of, you know, we connected through Tom Cowans clinic in the new biology clinic. But what I loved was a lot of the things that I was learning to be [00:08:00] true for humans. You were like, Hey, hey, that's the same, it's in the same in the animals.

[00:08:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. And so I was like, I gotta have you on the podcast 'cause I people. Need to know this information too. Obviously, Mo, all of my episodes up until this point have all been about human health, but our animals, and I'm, I'm surrounded by them. I've got my ragdoll kitty goose sitting there and my two labradoodles on the floor behind me and.

[00:08:24] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Their health is so important, and I think that as people are waking up to maybe the false information and poor nutrients that we have been in consuming as humans are also realizing, oh wow, the food that my animals are eating. Is also important and what do I do for them? So I love that you started out with talking about this calorie restriction that we're feeding them too much probably, and that, you know, there is something there in terms of doing less.

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[00:09:50] Dr. Katie Deming MD: can you tell us, like, so let's talk about dogs specifically. You know, what should we be feeding our dogs? And then how if we did want to incorporate [00:10:00] fasting and also thinking about less calories. How do you think about that? How would you approach feeding a healthy dog? And then we can talk about UNN.

[00:10:09] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Dogs are sick, and you already described that they don't want to eat and this is what they naturally do, but let's just talk with healthy dogs. What should people be doing for their dogs?

[00:10:17] Maureen McMichael: So the first thing is there is no time in nature that a dog or cat would be nibbling all day, right? I mean, a cat doesn't catch a mouse and take a nibble and, and leave it there, and then 10 minutes later take another nibble.

[00:10:32] Maureen McMichael: None and no time in nature would they be nibbling all day. So that's the first thing. Uh. And, and somehow it started, I think in, in veterinary medicine, people would feed their animals usually once a day and then it spread to twice a day and then it spread to free food. You know, free ad lib leave the food around all the time.

[00:10:53] Maureen McMichael: And I think that's a mistake. I think it's really a mistake. And people worry about not leaving the food all the time [00:11:00] because they say he, he or she doesn't eat breakfast. Well, that's 'cause it's around all the time, right? So there's a catch 22 there. So the first thing, don't feed all day. That's, that's the first thing.

[00:11:11] Maureen McMichael: That's pretty simple. The second thing is, at the very least, what a person can do, simply would be to feed one meal a day. At least two to three times a week, and that's a 24 hour fast. So it's pretty easy to just say two to three times a week, I'm just gonna feed one meal a day instead of two. And then that gives me a 24 hour fast.

[00:11:36] Maureen McMichael: And from that point, it could be extended a bit, so it could be extended to a 26 hour fast. We're just feeding dinner an hour later. Then, you know, so, so it's easy to play with that. And I think, I mean, you are way more the expert than me, but I think there's some evidence that 17 hours is where we start to begin the [00:12:00] autophagy around that time.

[00:12:01] Maureen McMichael: So. I like to aim for at least 24 hours, two to three times a week. But if we could get a little bit more than that, I think that could be ideal. I have someone whose dog had a pretty large tumor, uh. Visible, large and, and voluntarily fasted, just did not want any food. And so she started feeding her dog just raw milk.

[00:12:28] Maureen McMichael: That was it. And the dog would drink raw milk and after a month, she was worried that this wouldn't be nutritional, still wouldn't eat any food, so she added a raw egg and honey to it. The dog ate nothing but that for six months. And at the end of the six months, the dog, the dog was 15 when she started.

[00:12:49] Maureen McMichael: The end of the six months, the tumor is gone. The dog was young again, felt fabulous, and is now 18 and a half.

[00:12:56] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Wow.

[00:12:57] Maureen McMichael: Now I'm not recommending people do that. The dog did [00:13:00] it. The dog did it. So if she didn't do it, the dog did it. But it, it's just amazing what I think Fasti can do. I, I think it can be really powerful and, and I, I know people, so, so here's a challenge people.
kefi
[00:13:14] Maureen McMichael: Say, but she comes to me with big eyes wagging her tail begging for breakfast, right? Like I, I know that. So, you know, Valter Longo says that as long as you're under 400 calories and you're not have, you don't have any protein, you're not breaking the fast. So I recommend a carrot. Or a sweet red pepper.

[00:13:40] Maureen McMichael: Most dogs will love sweet red peppers. So something like that where we're not, we don't have protein and it's a very low caloric density. That just to get you over that hump of, you know, that I'm missing breakfast.

[00:13:55] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, yeah. I'm just, I'm thinking about, I have one who just, [00:14:00] just does fine and I have another one who knows, like to the minute when he is supposed to be fed and he will start sneezing and like, you know, the whining and the, like, shaking his rear end to say, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom.

[00:14:14] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know? So, um, I love that. And my, my dogs love. Bell peppers, like if they hear you start to cut bell peppers, they will immediately come in there. So, I, I think that that is great. And so you just give them like just a couple pieces to kind of. Yeah, skip that. That feeling like they've eaten something and then kind of just lengthen it.

[00:14:37] Dr. Katie Deming MD: The time period. And let me also be clear that we're talking about dogs specifically with the once like, uh, doing a 24 hour fast, two to three times a week, you're or you're not talking about cats with that we're specifically talking about dogs.

[00:14:50] Maureen McMichael: Right? Right. Specifically dogs, cats are di a little bit different still.

[00:14:55] Maureen McMichael: I don't believe cats should be eating all day.

[00:14:57] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah,

[00:14:57] Maureen McMichael: they shouldn't have the food out. The [00:15:00] difference with cats is that if a cat is overweight, and a lot of cats that are on commercial cat food, which is very high in carbs, a lot of those cats are overweight 'cause they're, they're not meant to have carbs.

[00:15:12] Maureen McMichael: Cats are carnivores. So if the cat is overweight. We fast them now, it's usually doesn't start until three days of not eating. They, they will mobilize too much fat. It will go to the liver and they'll get a fatty liver disease, you know, the fatty liver, and so they shut down their liver. So it can be dangerous to fast a fat cat or a a, a cat that's overweight.

[00:15:39] Maureen McMichael: So cats are a little tricky. Again, never, I don't think they should have food all day. And depending on whether they're indoor or outdoor, if a cat is an indoor outdoor, they're getting food all day. I mean, they're getting mice and you know, they're catching little things. So, but generally in the wild, cats only eat at night.

[00:15:59] Maureen McMichael: They don't [00:16:00] eat all day. They sleep most of the day. They hunt at night. They eat at night. So they, they're more used to the restricted time for feeding. And there's a, a, a fair amount of biology on the circadian rhythm and eating. And eating with your own circadian rhythm, which would mean an nocturnal animal should eat at night.

[00:16:20] Maureen McMichael: So if I were to feed a cat one meal a day, I would feed them dinner. That would just, just, or feed them at night. Yeah. Whatever that means for them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So dogs. It's mostly dogs.

[00:16:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Okay, perfect. No, and that's helpful just 'cause I think, you know, I was talking about both my animals and then, but I did ask you this question specifically about dogs, so I wanted people to hear that about the cat's part.

[00:16:45] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But you know, it's interesting too, since. You know, we scheduled this and, um, before we had the conversation today, I had a conversation with another colleague who's a naturopath actually, and she had a golden retriever that [00:17:00] was from, and it was service guy. It was service. Retrievers. So I, I grew up having, guide dogs for the blind.

[00:17:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So we had breeders, and I don't remember them doing this, but she described that actually with this breeder who bred specifically retriever service dogs. They always fasted those dogs at least once a week for 24 hours, and they've been doing that for like 20 years. Wow. And she said that they have a very long lifespan for golden retrievers.

[00:17:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so she had known about that for a really long time. She's like, oh yeah, don't you fast your dog. And I was like, no, I didn't know that. And she's like, oh yeah. When I got mine from the breeder, they told us that they do this every. I think it was every Sunday they fasted the, um, the dog. So, so interesting.

[00:17:46] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Just because it makes sense. It makes sense. Yes. Yes. But you know, we're just so used to like, oh, we wanna feed 'em all the time. And then also, you know, with the animals, I feel like we. You know, they can't talk to us. So [00:18:00] when they're, you know, whining, it's like you think, oh gosh, I'm hurting them. I don't wanna over, you know, I don't wanna de deny them, but the truth is, we're actually more likely to overfeed our animals and harm them in that way.

[00:18:11] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And doing less is, like you said, with the 25% caloric deficit. That just even reducing the amount that we're feeding them is a good thing. So really flipping the way that we think about this, I think just like with humans, we have been told that feeding an illness, you know, like chicken soup when you're sick and that kind of thing, that's not what our ancestors did.

[00:18:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: This is a recent thing that we had. Switch to, so now we're unlearning that not only for ourselves, but also for the animals.

[00:18:36] Maureen McMichael: That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And in the wild, if you think about it, so it sounds interesting 'cause you know there's a million diets out there for pets, right?

[00:18:48] Maureen McMichael: There's a carnivore diet and there's the mono diet and there are a lot of people that think they should just have meat. But if you think about in the wild, [00:19:00] if a dog got. Well, not that a sheep is wild, but let's say a dog got a sheep, right, or a coyote gets a a, a deer, the first thing they eat is the intestines.

[00:19:12] Maureen McMichael: And if you count the stomach, the small intestine and the large intestine, that is a good chunk of that animal. Probably 30% of the edible part that is filled with fermented veg. Because that animal has been eating grass and it, it's in the microbiome, the bacteria breaking it up and we have fermented veg.

[00:19:36] Maureen McMichael: So I, and, and there is some evidence that dogs need 30% fiber. So I think that when it comes to the ideal diet, adding in fermented veg is really important and I find that dogs tend to take very well to sweet. Fermented veg beets and carrots, that seems to [00:20:00] be the easiest to get them to eat. Less likely you're gonna get them to eat, uh, cabbage, you know, like sauerkraut.

[00:20:07] Maureen McMichael: But beets are sweet ca, carrots are sweet, and most dogs really love those.

[00:20:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Oh, that's super helpful. And then do you dokefir, like do you give themkefir as well?

[00:20:18] Maureen McMichael: Yes, yes. And I, I. It feels, you know, ha, it feels like having a child when you have these grains that you have to keep alive. It's like sourdough.

[00:20:28] Maureen McMichael: And so you've got these grains and I'm in warm weather, so it's pretty warm here, which means I have to change it every day. So sometimes it gets a little overwhelming and I just put it in the fridge for a couple of weeks. Uh, just to put it to sleep temporarily, and then I wake it up and I do it again, but yeah.

[00:20:48] Maureen McMichael: Yeah. When I make fear, I give it to my dogs and my chickens.

[00:20:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Interesting. The chickens too. Yeah, no, it's funny, the kefir, we just had a call in my, fasting group with [00:21:00] Monica and someone was having trouble with their kefir grains and it's, it's, they can just, it can be hard to get them started, right? But then like, once they're going, it's like, wow, what to do with them?

[00:21:11] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So giving 'em to the animals, uh, doing the kefir as well to the animals. And can they do some of the grains? Because sometimes. Yeah. Mean they love the grain. Yeah. You end up having so many grains that, um, using them is helpful as well. Uh, so I love that. And then what kind of food do you feed your dogs? So this is interesting.

[00:21:30] Maureen McMichael: There's commercial, uh, and then there's raw and then there's cooked, and then there's keto. Which is interesting. So, and I'll just mention this, there's a website called Keto Pet and it has tons of testimonials of cancer in dogs that has been reversed with the keto diet. And what I like about that website is it gives people tons of recipes for homemade, this [00:22:00] is how you make it.

[00:22:00] Maureen McMichael: This is, you know, so, so that's kind of nice. so Chinese medicine says that we should have our food warm. And in babies, if you feed them cold food, they'll vomit it up. Like they can't handle food. That's, that's not warm. So there's a part of me that feels like that it probably should be warm, particularly in the winter months.

[00:22:23] Maureen McMichael: And so, so going back to nature, right. In the winter it, so in the summer. This might sound disgusting, but in the summer, wolves would catch something, eat the intestines, eat the organs, and bury the muscle and the bone, and then over time they would dig it up and eat a little, dig it up and eat a little, and it essentially ferment.

[00:22:51] Maureen McMichael: Now they can't do that in the winter. So I've been thinking about this. What do they do in the winter? In the winter they have less, right? They have [00:23:00] less exposure to food, but it's always going to be warm because it's a fresh kill. So in the animal, they're eating body temperature, food, essentially. So I think that maybe the, the warmth in the winter is, is something that we remember somehow.

[00:23:16] Maureen McMichael: So, so. I have an older dog who, so if you feed raw, it's always gonna be cold 'cause it's, it's gotta go from freezer to fridge. And then, so I always make a big pot of Monica's chicken soup. So I have chicken stock and you know, I'll have everything in there. And then that's hot and that goes, the broth goes on the wet cold food.

[00:23:42] Maureen McMichael: Oh. And that helps warm it up. So that's my older dog really likes that. The others will, will eat anything. I give them anything.

[00:23:51] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah.

[00:23:52] Maureen McMichael: And then so there's homemade cooked, there's ho, there's raw, raw should be [00:24:00] sourced from a really trusted place. Ideally local, you know, the ideal, I, I have one person that I work with who's.

[00:24:12] Maureen McMichael: Lives and runs an organic farm with, they have every kind of animal you can imagine. They butcher their own animals on the farm and feed those fresh to their dogs. So that's like, you don't, it doesn't get better than that. Yeah. Most people can't do that. Um, but then there's commercial and, and one of the issues that came out, it came out a while ago, but then in 2020 we have some evidence that.

[00:24:39] Maureen McMichael: The heat processing of the kibble can cause damage to the vitamins. So there's new foods out that are coming out left and right that are air dried and freeze dried. Some of those are high quality. So there's one that uses 85% [00:25:00] New Zealand beef and, and human grade New Zealand beef, and then it's air dried.

[00:25:06] Maureen McMichael: And then the other ingredients are like pumpkin and. Some vitamins. So people, some people have to have that because, uh, so I use it when I'm gone and I have a pet sitter mm-hmm. Because she's just not gonna cook for my pets. So I use that for those times. And some people have to have that, some people are too busy to cook and, but the, at the very least, a simple thing would be to take a bowl of that and crack a good pasture raised raw egg.

[00:25:38] Maureen McMichael: Or grab, you know, I get frozen chicken livers, frozen chicken hearts, thaw those out, you know, throw a chicken liver on top, something like that. That's easy sort of as an add-on. And it's convenient because you just grab it and throw it.

[00:25:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love the idea of putting the chicken stock over their food because I've been giving my, my dogs [00:26:00] will eat anything too.

[00:26:01] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I, and, and this is actually a question. So we had been making food and that I had had farmer's dog at one point, and then we switched to making the food and we found out that chicken, they, one of 'em, my dogs had skin issues with the chicken and so we were doing different types of meats. It's amazing at how expensive that can get with doing the meat.

[00:26:26] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so one of the questions I had for you is like, something like farmer's dog that is, you know, it's vegetables and meat that's mixed and then packaged. What are, what are your thoughts about those types of foods?

[00:26:40] Maureen McMichael: Those are, I, I, I think Farmer's Dog is transforming the veterinary field because they have a significant presence and they have hired veterinary nutritionists.

[00:26:51] Maureen McMichael: So they're really working hard to make it a good, uh, a really good homemade food. Uh, and I think, I think [00:27:00] they, they're great. You know, I, I don't, I won't ever think that anything I, I always think homemades best.

[00:27:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah.

[00:27:08] Maureen McMichael: But the next best thing would be that,

[00:27:10] Dr. Katie Deming MD: yeah, it was, I think it was just surprising for me 'cause I was thinking, oh well it should be like cost.

[00:27:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: The same, but it's just more time to cook it yourself. But actually it was a lot more expensive than Farmer's Dog and really, because you have to be cooking every couple days. Yeah. You know it, it was really time intensive. So just to be honest, we've gone back to the Farmer's dog just because it was working.

[00:27:36] Dr. Katie Deming MD: The dogs liked it. But I think what I'm gonna do, just like you said, is add the, chicken stock to it and then doing the kefir, which we have, so that adding those both and also, so I didn't know that, that you could add a raw egg to dogs and they do fine with that.

[00:27:52] Maureen McMichael: Yeah. Yeah. As long as it's trusted, you know, a trusted source.

[00:27:56] Maureen McMichael: The other thing that, that is a really nice thing, especially for cats, but [00:28:00] dogs too sardines in water.

[00:28:02] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:03] Maureen McMichael: Because a sardine is a whole fish, like the little organs, it's got a little liver, you know? And so it's, and if you can get it, it's hard to get. But if you can get it with the eyes, with the head, that's fabulous.

[00:28:17] Maureen McMichael: Most people can't, you know, most of them have the head removed. Sardines are great. Not in oil. The oil's always ranted, but in water they are fabulous. You can keep, keep 'em in the, the cabinet, just grab a can, throw a sardine on top and it's fantastic.

[00:28:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Okay, well I have sardines too, so there we go. I love it.

[00:28:35] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You just gave me several ideas. so it's, it's really helpful. You know, one thing. That. I know we don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to just touch on with you because I have known this to be true through my practice, and then I've heard you mention it, but so. I've had clients where they have cancer [00:29:00] and then lo and behold, the dog has cancer of the same kind.

[00:29:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I'm just wondering, like one of the things that you've talked about when we were in the new biology clinic together, you would say, oftentimes the animals illnesses will mirror what's going on with the humans. And I'm wondering if you can just speak briefly to that. I would love to know more.

[00:29:20] Maureen McMichael: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Maureen McMichael: It's so interesting and so, so. There, there are a couple of studies in veterinary medicine looking at the placebo effect, and this this'll make sense in a minute. So the, the studies that are the most robust are the epilepsy trials. And so what they did was they took dogs that had had a diagnosis of idiopathic epilepsy, so no known cause.

[00:29:44] Maureen McMichael: Who had to have had at least four seizures a month for over a year. So pretty regular seizure activity. They brought him in, half of the dogs got a placebo, and half of the dogs got a new [00:30:00] exciting anti-seizure medication. Nobody knew which got which. The owners didn't know. Of course, the dogs didn't know, and after the trial was done, over 50% of the, actually it's over 80% of the dogs in the placebo groups had reduction in seizure frequency.

[00:30:21] Maureen McMichael: Most of them, at least a 50% reduction. So the dog is getting the placebo and his seizures are cut in half. So how on earth is that happening? And it's because they are absolutely reading the owner's feelings per perceptions, emotions. And that owner is it, uh. I would imagine is saying this might be a really exciting medication that's gonna stop the seizures and it's a good thing and the dog sees it as a good thing and the dog feels better.

[00:30:54] Maureen McMichael: And so there's a very strong connection with the owner and the dog and the owner and the cat very [00:31:00] strong. And I think people underestimate that. And one of the, one of the things that we. When we're worried about them and we in a panic look for test after test and keep going and getting another test and another test and come back, I think that gives them the, the element of fear is, is put inserted into the relationship and that fear can never be.

[00:31:26] Maureen McMichael: It can never be good. And so the more that people can make that connection and then of course the fear in the person who has cancer themselves and is so afraid that fear is just, I, I think it's sort of magnetizing to the pet and the owner and it's just going back and forth. And so anything people can do, I tell people, the best time to talk to your pet is when you're petting them.

[00:31:55] Maureen McMichael: So you're petting them and you're telling them your body is brilliant. It knows [00:32:00] exactly what to do. It knows exactly how to heal. It's brilliant. And the more they say that, you know, and it's probably coming into their mind too, right? But it's really powerful and they've shown, uh, cat purring can have some significant effects on humans, right?

[00:32:19] Maureen McMichael: Just the vibration of the cat purring and, and you're petting it. It's just beautiful.

[00:32:24] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know, animals are so, especially, dogs are so intuitive, and when the human is upset, then they come and they, you know, they. Basically come and, and share. My, my perception is this, that I think that they're sharing their frequency, right?

[00:32:40] Dr. Katie Deming MD: They hold a high frequency, they're living in the present moment. They aren't, you know, plagued by fear and anxiety and all these things that we hold most of the time as humans. Them just coming and sitting on us is healing. Right? And so it makes sense then that if they can share their [00:33:00] frequency with us of peace and wellbeing that can affect us, that our frequency of the anxiety, the fear, all of that.

[00:33:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Can affect the animal. So, and I love those studies. I love the placebo effect because it shows there is really something there and it makes so much sense, right? It and it makes sense that, you know, there are studies that show that the placebo effects when the doctor thinks that the. Patient is getting a medication.

[00:33:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So the doctor's belief affects the person who's taking it. So it absolutely makes sense that animals would be influenced by their owner, what they believe, because that's who they look to, um, for, you know, their care and safety and, authority. So I think that it's, I think it's fascinating and I think there's so much.

[00:33:50] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Still for us to learn there. Um, but I love that you see, you know, when you said that you saw that too, I was like, oh, there's definitely something there because I [00:34:00] know what I see in my practice and, and also sometimes I've seen where animals are doing fine and then the human gets sick with cancer something, and then the animal gets sick and dies and, and you wonder too.

[00:34:13] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I mean, and who knows? I'm not trying to make people feel guilty about their dogs dying if they, but who knows if the dog took on something to help serve the human? You know, it just, there's so many questions that I have, I think more questions than answers, but it fascinates me.

[00:34:29] Maureen McMichael: No, you're absolutely right.

[00:34:30] Maureen McMichael: And I think it's, it's, it is powerful. There was, there was a dog that was on Ignatia. Ignatia is a homeopathic remedy for grief and loss, and this dog had been a rescue dog and he had been in multiple homes and then sort of dumped and abandoned. So he was put on Ignatia, did so much better on Ignatia, and the owner went to a human homeopath and her remedy was ignatia.

[00:34:57] Maureen McMichael: Which just totally [00:35:00] separate. Didn't know that human home we've had, didn't know anything about her dog, but that was her remedy. So it's very interesting there's, it's almost like they're helping us go through these portals of transformation that we need to go through, and they're there to help us go through them.

[00:35:15] Maureen McMichael: It's just beautiful. And you know, Kelly Brogan said once that she thinks they are representing our inner children that need to be healed. Which is very interesting too.

[00:35:26] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Well, thank you so much, Maureen, for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm sure I would love to have you back to talk about other topics.

[00:35:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Where can people find you?

[00:35:41] Maureen McMichael: The only place right now is New biology clinic. I don't have, I don't know anything about social media.

[00:35:49] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love that.

[00:35:50] Maureen McMichael: Yeah. I don't like it. I don't do it. I don't, nothing but new biology clinic. Yeah.

[00:35:54] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Okay, great. And so for those who don't know, the New Biology Clinic is [00:36:00] a multidisciplinary clinic now, actually founded by Tom Cowan.

[00:36:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And that they do holistic, care and it's membership based. And they have a veterinarian now. They have dentists too. Multiple dentists joining the practice as well. Um, so we'll put a link there to the new biology clinic. So Maureen, thank you so much for being here. It was my absolute pleasure to talk to you.

[00:36:21] Maureen McMichael: Thank you. It was wonderful. Thank you so much.

[00:36:24] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Thank you for being here today. Please enjoy a previous episode of Born To Heal, and if you found value in our conversation, please subscribe and share with someone who might benefit. Have questions, drop them in the YouTube comments or message me on Instagram Links are in the episode description.

[00:36:42] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Remember, just like me, you were born to heal.