Episode 104 | Why She Stopped Being Her Husband’s ‘Caregiver’ During His Cancer Journey with Kim Scanlon & Psych-K Expert Sandra Wallin

[00:00:00] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What if supporting a loved one through cancer could strengthen your relationship rather than breaking it down? You may think being a caregiver means sacrificing yourself completely, but there's another way to walk this journey together.[00:00:14] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Today I sit down with Sandra Wallin, a psychotherapist and PYSCH-Kinstructor with decades of experience, along with Kim Scanlon, whose husband Keith, a doctor himself, was diagnosed with cancer. Kim joined one of our PYSCH-Kworkshops, not as the patient, but as the partner, and what she discovered transformed how she navigated this challenging season.

[00:00:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You'll learn why the word caregiver might be doing more harm than good. How simple PYSCH-Ktechniques can calm your nervous system even during intense medical appointments. And why true healing isn't just about the patient, it's about the whole family system.

[00:00:56] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Stay until the end to hear how one small shift in [00:01:00] perception transformed a tense medical appointment into a moment of genuine human connection. Sometimes the most powerful healing happens when we change how we see, rather than what we're looking at. Let's dive in.

[00:01:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Hello everyone. I'm Dr. Katie Deming, and this is The Born to Heal podcast where we share practical tools and knowledge to help you create conditions for true healing in your life. Let's welcome today, Sandra Wallin and Kim Scanlon to the show. Welcome.

[00:01:42] Sandra Wallin: Thank you.

[00:01:42] Kim Scanlon: Thank you.

[00:01:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I'm so excited to have this conversation actually, so.

[00:01:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Sandra has been on the show before. Sandra Wallin is a psychotherapist, a PYSCH-Kinstructor who's been doing it for, you know, multiple decades now at this [00:02:00] point, and has been previously on the show to talk about psych K. But today we have a very special guest with Sandra Kim. So Kim. Joined one of our Pysch K workshops as the partner to her husband who is experiencing a diagnosis.

[00:02:19] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And she came in as someone who is not dealing with cancer herself, but supporting a partner. And so Sandra and I really wanted to have this conversation on the podcast so that people could hear. W what I, what are the benefits of PYSCH-K K? Not just for people who are experience a diagnosis and are in the process of healing themselves, but also supporting a loved one?

[00:02:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Because in my mind. Healing is not just around one person. It's really a family dynamic. It's something that impacts the whole ecosystem, and it's really important that [00:03:00] we're looking at what are the needs of those people who are. Also impacted by illness, maybe not personally, but through their loved one, and then also are supporting someone through this process.

[00:03:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So Kim, I'm so grateful to you for being here with us and you know, it's really a special treat to have you, so thank you for being here.

[00:03:21] Kim Scanlon: you.

[00:03:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Let's start out by what made you decide to sign up? What made you think that maybe this was something that would be helpful?

[00:03:29] Kim Scanlon: I should just start by saying my husband's name is Keith. And Keith and I, uh, did an initial con consultation with Dr. Katie and you, Dr. Katie talked about, Keith said, tell me the three things I need to know. And you, you said to him, this deep work with your. limiting beliefs is central and you recommended a few different approaches, [00:04:00] but you, you had your hand on your heart when you said psych k, and you used the word lighter.

[00:04:06] Kim Scanlon: You said, when people I work with do this PYSCH-K practice, they come back in the next week and they're lighter. And that is just, you know, at that point in my experience with Keith and the medical system and everything, no one had ever used the word. Lighter, it's not a commonly used word. And everything in me just went, how do, how does that happen?

[00:04:31] Kim Scanlon: How do that We are so, so burdened and scared and tired and um, and this word lighter just came in. And so what I did. Is I turned to Keith after our call with you and I said, I think you really need to do that. And what Keith did was say, no. And then, and then, you know, I spent a little time trying to get him to do it and he said, no, [00:05:00] it's not my time.

[00:05:01] Kim Scanlon: I'm this, I'm, I'm doing my thing. And I was so. Upset and, tried to use my wiles to persuade him and it just didn't work. And then one day your email came and it was said, it said at the top, dear Kim, and then it said, I'm doing this workshop for caregivers. And I read it. And by the time I was done reading it, I was just weeping and.

[00:05:33] Kim Scanlon: It's not, I have a wonderful community, a wonderful life, a wonderful family. It's not like people hadn't offered to help, but sometimes the help is overwhelming too. You know? It's just, I, I was, I just, I hadn't been able to even organize myself around the idea of supporting myself. And that letter went right into my heart and I sent you my money and I didn't tell Keith and I [00:06:00] showed up for my workshop and I was amazed when I looked around at the faces of everyone in the workshop and I was the only one without a diagnosis, and the faces were so soft.

And your face was so soft, Sandra, you know? And I just, as we began to get to know each other in the process, I was like, oh, this is that lighter. This is that lighter, this is that lightness. And then I went off to do my first big practice by myself, and it was called Transforming Perception of Stress. And I thought, well, I'm gonna do it on the word cancer because That's where it's at. And so I did this very simple, very elegant little process thinking, right, right. Um, crossing my arms and my legs and what power does that have up against the word cancer, sir? [00:07:00] And, um, I did, as you had instructed me to do, and, and all of a sudden I felt this thing. I didn't think I could feel.

[00:07:09] Kim Scanlon: I just felt like, okay, okay. It was, I don't even know what it was, but it was just simple and like, here we are, me and cancer. All right, let's go. And it was just like waking up after a long, nightmarish night, you know? Uh, it's, it's permeated my life since that time.

[00:07:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love that.

[00:07:35] Kim Scanlon: Yeah.

[00:07:36] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And you know, I think that. That's one of the things that for me is remarkable about watching people learn the skills of PSYCH-K or, you know, go through sessions, is that it seems so simple. it can be so profound in the way that we feel when we're able to transform our perception [00:08:00] of, and I love that you used the word cancer because it's so loaded, right?

[00:08:05] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, I mean, that is why I gave a TEDx talk on language and cancer because it's just, there's so much there. Just even with that one word. To be able to realize like, oh, there's a tool that I can use to help to shift these things. It doesn't take all of it away, right? But you can shift that to where you're like, okay, it doesn't have the grip on me.

[00:08:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know, you can start to feel more neutral and that, and that's where the lightness comes from. And in my perspective as a, you know, practitioner who has so many clients who do this practice, but. I love that you shared that in the way that that's just like, you know, such a good example of the opening that starts to happen with this practice.

[00:08:51] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So let me ask you, you had said something about the word caregiver before we got on this call. You had talked about [00:09:00] how just even being called a caregiver was something that. Felt, I'm not sure if the word was heavy or, but felt laden with so much weight to it. I'm wondering, can you, can you talk about that just in terms of language?

[00:09:15] Dr. Katie Deming MD: 'cause I think, you know, this is one thing that, we use this word all the time, right? We say, caregiver, oh, are you a caregiver? Are you this? And again, it's kind of like Survivor. I was using that without even using that term. But when you brought that up, I was like, oh wow, okay. There's another word that maybe we need to look at.

[00:09:32] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So tell us. Your thoughts about that?

[00:09:34] Kim Scanlon: we walked out of the, the hardest appointment with the oncologist where there, he gave us a lot of numbers and kind of set a clock. I mean, just the lowest point in this journey. I looked at my husband and he just was so sunk and diminished, and up until then I had just sort of thought, oh, we'll get [00:10:00] through this.

[00:10:00] Kim Scanlon: Easy peasy. They'll figure it out. And that was the first time I was like, this is pretty challenging. And. I looked at him and I thought, there's only one solution. I'll never be happy again, and I'm going to be perfect for him. I am gonna be constant and serene and confident, and I am gonna be the perfect caregiver. And, uh, that lasted like six hours. You know, I just, and Keith actually looked at me and he was like, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm being perfect. And, and he said, cut it out. And that was like my first moment of kind of reckoning with my own ideas of what a caregiver needed to be. And I said, what do you want me to be?

[00:10:54] Kim Scanlon: And he said, just be my partner.

[00:10:56] Kim Scanlon: Just be my partner. And I walked away and I [00:11:00] thought, well, easily said, because the fact is I have to set aside a lot of my needs and you're the person I go to with my needs. And, uh, that isn't an option right now. You are occupied, preoccupied, I don't know how to do this. Uh, you know, it was a little bit like just, uh, like, you know, somehow I have to function without there being a bathroom in my apartment or something. I actually had that dream one night and I just can't, I couldn't hold it. And be and be good. And so, um, I had all those associations with caregiver.

[00:11:41] Kim Scanlon: Caregiver is someone who holds it and she's good. Caregiver is someone who is depleted and then tries to be good until she explodes and. You know, when I got into the first CHE class and then I really began to develop it, [00:12:00] when Keith and I went and took us together and we could really talk about it, um, I realized, oh, I inherited those ideas.

[00:12:09] Kim Scanlon: And they're just, they're just reflexes. They aren't really creative, loving responses to what actually is here. So that's when I decided I wasn't gonna use the word caregiver. I was just going to use the word partner, but I'm fine now. I'm really fluid with the language. It's okay with me, but I had to make my own relationship to it and get a little more room in there.

[00:12:35] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love actually that you brought this up because. What you did was you gave yourself permission to not necessarily use the terms that are available and then really explored. Why does that feel heavy for you? And realizing what was, you know, in your mind, what that looked like. And then, so let me ask you this.

[00:12:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: How [00:13:00] does it feel to say I'm Keith's partner? Does that, does that feel, how does that feel when you say that in relation to, you know, helping him and, you know, being alongside on this journey?

[00:13:13] Kim Scanlon: So sweet. And what I realized was there was a way I was making him a, an object or making him my baby or make, you know, I was very confused about. Things that he couldn't do anymore that I needed to do, and, and how did that change our relationship? But as a partner, uh, I just, I don't know, I just felt more nimble.

[00:13:38] Kim Scanlon: I felt more relaxed, and, he. Has, I think it was seeing me make that change, not that I could articulate it to him. You know, I started in this city and now I'm in this city. But he saw it and he felt it, and he said, is this S okay? And I said, I think it is. because it's helping me just catch [00:14:00] these ideas that are, they're too small. And, and give myself more room. And then I think you get more room and he said, I, I'm gonna come take the one with you. And I just acted very calm about it. Cool.

[00:14:16] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Yeah. In the background you're like, you know, high fiving yourself and yeah.

[00:14:21] Kim Scanlon: I, I, I almost called Sandra. Guess what?

[00:14:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love it. I love it. Well, and you know, with that word, you know, now that you say it like partner, we're used to using that word for intimate partner, right? Our life partner. And somehow when. When we use the word caregiver, it does, it makes it feel like we're taking care of someone who's dependent on us, whereas this is your equal.

[00:14:51] Dr. Katie Deming MD: This is your life partner. This is your intimate partner. That that partner has that sweetness still in it, and that piece of like, [00:15:00] oh, we're partners in this, whatever that looks like. Not like I'm supposed to know what to do to take care of you, you know? So I, I love that and I love this story about how Keith was, you know, and it's fine.

[00:15:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I'm always, I always say to people, it's like, you know, I, I'm gonna show, show you the things that I'm learning, and if this, you know, resonates with you, great. And the fact that it didn't resonate with him, I love that he said, no, I'm, it's not my time to do it now. Then seeing the changes in you then sparked this opening like, oh, I can see the benefit.

[00:15:34] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And you know, sometimes we need that to see like, oh, I wanna see what the effects are before I wanna jump in myself. So, you know, what I'd like to do is actually, Sandra, with this, you know. Keith coming in and, and because you taught both, right? So they did, uh, Kim you did online level one, which was part of one of my offerings through my online with Sandra.

[00:15:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But then you guys [00:16:00] did the basic, um, is that right? The site K basic in person together. Let me ask you this, Sandra, what is that like of seeing two people come together? I know that we didn't expect to talk about this today, but I, I kind of love this, of like, one person is transforming from using the skills and then brings in their partner.

[00:16:24] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, what, what do you see in that that happens there?

[00:16:28] Sandra Wallin: They were.

[00:16:29] Sandra Wallin: Divine and sublime, and I, I just love them both. I got to meet Keith before doing, uh, a little bit of session work with him. So we had developed a rapport and a relationship also. So having them both here in person, knowing them each individually through our work together and getting to know each other and then getting to know them together, I.

[00:16:52] Sandra Wallin: Was just such a, a blessing and a gift for me. And to see the light and the sparkle in their eyes and, [00:17:00] and the, and the absolute adoration and love that they have for each other. The respect, the reverence, the kindness. Watching them do balancing like when they would. I'd go and practice together.

[00:17:13] Sandra Wallin: I just have this picture of them sitting out across, across the property on the other side of the horse paddock. There's this big maple tree with a, a wooden bench. And I'd look over there and they'd be gonna make me kind of, probably. Field teary, who is so beautiful, and there they would be over there, the two of them, completely in love and practicing together.

[00:17:35] Sandra Wallin: And working together. And then at one point they were both laying on the ground, on under the grass, under the trees with their kind of their feet up. You know, I could just imagine I didn't want, it was like I, I couldn't possibly go and check in on them because the intimacy of it was so beautiful that there's no way I could possibly enter into that bubble that they had created for each other.

[00:17:55] Sandra Wallin: And speaking about partnership. It was the embodiment [00:18:00] of that, uh, of intimate, of intimate partnership like we, we see in the people that we share our lives with across. All of the, the ages and stages of our lives, but also partnership in terms of how they were both learning on alongside each other and bringing, bringing that learning together, that exploration, that curiosity, uh, and, and the hope and the beauty also.

[00:18:25] Sandra Wallin: And then to, to see how the other people in the room were also touched by their love story. It was, it was beautiful.

[00:18:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Wow. I love it. I love it. And how about for you, Kim? So obviously you were so excited when he said that he would, but what, what was that like? What has it been like now to share this experience of doing that together? Having done it by yourself and then doing it together?

[00:18:51] Kim Scanlon: Well, I don't think we'd be where we are with it if we hadn't done that workshop [00:19:00] Residentially with you, Sandra. With your horses, gliding by, with the tree, all of it. because Keith said from the beginning, I don't wanna partner with other people. I can't if people's responses are so strong. I just, and, and I had a kind of gulp like, Ooh, okay, my responses are really strong, but.

[00:19:22] Kim Scanlon: That's what we went to work on in our practice. And what was really cool was we could reach a point where I would say, this has gotten marital, I'm getting Sandra. And, and I would, and she would come over and she would step in and support Keith in a way that I can't. And that he, he can, he can't quite yet either.

[00:19:47] Kim Scanlon: I mean, it was just a beautiful thing to have help and support and then be left alone. And it was a good, we had just the right amount of all of that. And [00:20:00] since we've come home, there's, we have more humor and more ease about, uh. The way our fear grabs us. Nobody's attractive when they're afraid, and we're just getting more relaxed about that.

[00:20:18] Kim Scanlon: Like, I'm terrified right now. I can't pretend could we do a balance? And, and just even the, the loving act of having Keith hold my arm when he, you know, he'll test me now. It's so precious and sometimes I can even do a balance called I trust my husband. Weak and then, you know, we'll both laugh. And then I go in and I do my own private world in there.

[00:20:46] Kim Scanlon: He doesn't know what the content is. That's one of the things I love about PYSCH-K. I often don't know what the content is. I close my eyes and just things are moving around in there. Someone's moving the furniture and then I [00:21:00] come out and I say, see how I test? And we can feel the difference. It is, it's, I don't know how I would do it now without it.

[00:21:09] Kim Scanlon: We were at the cancer center the other day and something slightly alarming happened and I just said to the oncologist, I'm going to the bathroom. I'm gonna do s.

[00:21:20] Sandra Wallin: I love that.

[00:21:26] Kim Scanlon: I did, I just said, going to the bathroom doing ic. She doesn't really know what it is, but she was like, great. And you know, and they, because I should say Keith is a doctor and so sometimes the doctor, doctor conversations are. Too much for anybody in my opinion, but certainly for me. And so anyway, now I'm learning this thing, she's part of it.

[00:21:49] Kim Scanlon: I can just say, see ya, I'm gonna go do some PYSCH-K. You guys geek out over this organ or whatever. Goodbye. And it's just, it's really, [00:22:00] it's helping it, it loosens up her.

[00:22:02] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, well, it's giving you a tool that in the moment can. Help calm your nervous system and give yourself a little space. And then also you're creating space and awareness so that you can catch things before they grip you and you're, you know, down this rabbit hole of nervous system, you know, dysregulation.

[00:22:26] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And that's what I love about PYSCH-K. The lightness, you know, that's the most common thing that I see in people. But that spaciousness that you're describing of people starting to have awareness of what it is that's coming up and, and then you said something that I just wanna clarify for the listeners.

[00:22:43] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know, you said, I don't even know what the contents are there, and this is kind of one of the reasons why I love the PYSCH-K case. You know, we talk about in, you know, healing that it's important to release past trauma and process your emotions. And people think that that [00:23:00] means you have to go and then talk through all of your trauma and let everything, you know, like verbalize all of that.

[00:23:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And that's one of the beautiful things about the PYSCH-K case is you don't even need to verbalize any of it and you can transform it. And I think that. That's one of the scary parts about trauma work. For people who have illness specifically, they're like, oh my gosh, that's, do I wanna open that box? But this is what you just said is that is exactly what it is with PYSCH-K case.

[00:23:28] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You don't have to do that in order to heal and balance for things. And maybe Sandra, you can speak to that. 'cause I think that's, that's one of the things that is. Freaks people out and, and pushes them away from wanting to address trauma or, you know, process through the emotional aspects of illness.

[00:23:47] Sandra Wallin: Well, one of the things that's very beautiful about this process is because we're leveraging the power of the subconscious mind, which processes information at a minimum of 40 bits of information per second. I just went left brain geeky there for a second. [00:24:00] It enables us to transform things that maybe we've been holding onto for for decades.

[00:24:08] Sandra Wallin: Often in seconds to minutes, so the processing power. Is so incredible that, you know, we're so used to trying to ch create change with the power of the subconscious mind, which is 40 bits of, so at least a million times more powerful. The subconscious. It's, and, and so when we have that as a befriend it and partner with it, then we can create change very, very quickly, permanent and lasting change.

[00:24:34] Sandra Wallin: And we don't have to know why we are the way we are sometimes we have a storyline that we can track and follow. I don't have to know why I'm afraid of the dark to transform my fear of the dark. I don't know. I don't have to know why I have an association around, for example, the word cancer, although most people wouldn't be difficult to figure out why that would be because of the storylines that have been written about and are continually being written about it.

[00:24:59] Sandra Wallin: But to [00:25:00] transform our perception of something. You know, Wayne Dyer has this beautiful quote, he says, when we change the way we look at things, the things we look at change, and, and, and even I, I remember speaking with someone too about, look, thinking about the team of people when you're, when you're going, Kim was talking about being at the medical center, being in the medical community, and there's all these perspectives, there's all these paradigms, there's all these.

[00:25:24] Sandra Wallin: Complete lineages of belief that are so ingrained, etched in stone, really, that this is the, if this you, if you have this, then this means this. And then they approach the professionals approach it with what their history is. And if we can re perceive the professionals in our lives, those doctors in our lives, those deliverers of the, of the doctrine and the message.

[00:25:48] Sandra Wallin: And see them as to use the word partner. So now they're part, they're our partners as well, not just Keith and Kim, not just me and whoever, but now we have this whole team, and if I [00:26:00] perceive that person, so now I see them and visualize and know that they're supportive agent in the, in the team approach to this transformation.

[00:26:10] Sandra Wallin: It's amazing how they in turn then. Without ever doing anything with them or saying anything to them, how they kind of magically, often will, will shift. And this is just a quantum idea about the observer effect that back to Wayne Dyer. When I change the way I see this professional, this doctor, this oncologist, then how they can show up in our lives, how they deliver, how they soften very often, how they lighten, uh, is quite miraculous, even though.

[00:26:40] Sandra Wallin: We've never worked with them directly. So transforming our perceptions is really at the heart of what we do in the PYSCH-K processes. Sometimes we use language, so we will create goal statements or belief statements, and like the one that that Kim shared, I trust, Keith, we, we meaning. [00:27:00] That her subconscious mind doesn't actually have data to support that.

[00:27:05] Sandra Wallin: So it's like, okay, that barcode does not exist in the database, so not there. But then also if, if we're in a place of fear or worry or, or frustration, um, then we, we don't necessarily have to have words associated with that. So I can just be in the, be in the feeling of that. And then. Transform that, that feeling, that association to it, not to exercise it or to get rid of it, because we wanna have anger, we wanna have grief, we wanna have sadness, we wanna have joy, but we wanna be whole brain to all of those emotions.

[00:27:44] Sandra Wallin: And that's what the psychic process enables us to do, is to be in right relationship with all of those emotions. And when we are, it's in, you know, the, the effect that that has on our physiology is. well documented as well that the emotional [00:28:00] elixirs that we can take, uh, are profoundly healing and transformational as well.

[00:28:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Absolutely. I'm wondering, and this may be for both of you, but then maybe we'll start with Kim and then Sandra can come in. But thinking of doing this work as a partner, you know, and you came into the workshop that you joined with Sandra for the online level one was every, as you said, you were the only one who didn't have a diagnosis of cancer. What was, what was that like? Like what was that like to be with all of those other women? This was all women, right? In that workshop and you know, was that, was that comfortable? Was there benefits of being with other people who were dealing with the diagnosis, who weren't in the partner role that you were in?

[00:28:54] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So that's my first question is kind of what was that like? Was there, did you feel like. That [00:29:00] was, you had really different needs, or was it helpful to be with them even though what they were going through was different?

[00:29:06] Kim Scanlon: That's the first question.

[00:29:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, the first question. Um. I, I remember feeling like, um, not so much that they all had a diagnosis, but they all had a relationship with you and maybe a, a certain way of talking or thinking or approaching, and I didn't want to. violate that. There, there was a very gentle atmosphere and I think I was thinking that we would all be weeping and crying and comparing notes and everything, and there was a gentleness and it wasn't phony.

[00:29:43] Kim Scanlon: It was very genuine and I was the most. I felt uptight, nerve wracked person in the room and I was the one not with the diagnosis. And I was very struck [00:30:00] by that. And, and a lot of the women, they were talking, you know, a lot of them were talking about their sons being on cell phones. That was the thing they were. They were working on, like there are other concerns. There's a bigger world. And that was the quality I felt in that class that was so wonderful was like, yeah, this thing is happening and there's a bigger world and. I became sort of, uh, affected by that and I started to think, what, maybe there is a bigger what there is really.

[00:30:33] Kim Scanlon: So I loved being with those women. I fell in love with every single one of 'em. And because they were so open, there was an open quality and, how do I say it? Um. There was no denial, but there was no drama.

[00:30:51] Sandra Wallin: Hmm.

[00:30:52] Kim Scanlon: You know, there was just real presence to whatever was happening. I loved it. And um, [00:31:00] and. I do know that there was one point where I felt like there is something I think I've experienced here that nobody else has experienced in that, sitting in the chair, listening to a doctor, talk to my husband and not being able to say anything.

[00:31:17] Kim Scanlon: It was his appointment, it was his life. It was his inform and that I, that was the only time I felt I have a very distinct experience here that I need to track. It's being silent through so many really intense conversations. Because by the time the doctor says, do you have any questions? It's like, please don't have any questions.

[00:31:42] Kim Scanlon: You know? And also from my point of view, it's like where do I start, you know, with the questions. And so I felt that I did feel was unique to me. And I remember talking to Sandra, like, how do I, how do I balance for this? And [00:32:00] is it gonna upset other people? Are they gonna be thinking about how silenced their partner or friend has been?

[00:32:05] Kim Scanlon: And anyway, you help, you just helped me move right through that. It was easy.

[00:32:09] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Easy. that, I think that it's beautiful to hear that, and actually I think that your persp, this is what my, my hope is that we do have more of a mix people who are partners who maybe are not affected in the, the same way as my clients directly, because that perspective of, you know, feeling that. Silence of, you know, just, and also I can only imagine it with your husband being a doctor, right?

[00:32:41] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Keith's a doctor and then at these doctor's appointments, they're having the doctor to doctor conversation. And so then it's even harder, I would imagine, to be able to insert in, because they're, you know, talking this language. And so.

[00:32:57] Kim Scanlon: You don't have to imagine, you know?

[00:32:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: [00:33:00] Yes. Yes. So I, I know, I know what that must be like, but I think that this is a beautiful thing that.

[00:33:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: That I see through site Kate, but then also the work that, you know with my clients and I, and I love, you know, the, the group of women that you were with is very special. Like, I really feel like I, I'm so blessed with the clients who are in my life and they. Just beautiful human beings who, as you said, it's like, yes, there's this diagnosis, but there's not the drama of the victimhood of the, you know, it's, it's how do we, yes.

[00:33:34] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And how are we managing through this in the most? You know, healthy way that we can for ourselves, you know? So, but I love this idea of having these other perspectives because for them it's helpful too to hear maybe in that, in that workshop you didn't, you know, feel comfortable to say, Hey, I'm, you know, this is something that I'm experiencing.

[00:33:56] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But for them too, because their partners may not [00:34:00] be saying it to them, you know, that I feel this. But to have someone like yourself to have the experience. And, you know, working through that then allows them to see like, oh, you know, this is how this is impacting the whole system, the whole family. And, and so I think there's really such beauty in, in that, um, contrast, right?

[00:34:26] Dr. Katie Deming MD: In the different experiences that you have and, and that there's learning for everyone from that perspective. You know, I'm wondering, Sandra, from your perspective, you know, what was it like? Do you think there's, you know, does it feel really different with, you know, someone who's a partner versus someone who's going through the diagnosis?

[00:34:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What's your perspective on that piece?

[00:34:49] Sandra Wallin: Oh, I'm all about heterogeneity. Yeah. Bring in the diversity, bring in the unique perspectives. We all learn from each other's. Learning is a sacred reciprocity, so [00:35:00] we're all each other's teachers and we're all the students along the way, and I think it's just a. An incredible opportunity to, to learn from other people, to hear that this has been my, and even amongst the ladies that have had diagnosis, I mean, there's common threads for Sher, but there's unique facets to, to every, every journey that they're walking along.

[00:35:22] Sandra Wallin: So I, I, I think it's a beautiful thing and it's, it's lovely too, because at the end of the. In the level one workshop, which is taught online as people learn different things, they're, they're going into their own sort of. You know, breakout space. And then I come through and check in and we, we converse. So people are having their own individualized experiences, but the end of that workshop is an opportunity for them to come together in small groups and, and that the feedback from that, from all of the level one workshops that I've been able to share, uh, so fortunately.

[00:35:56] Sandra Wallin: Is always beautiful and people really love that. [00:36:00] That time it's like, okay, I've, I've scaffolded, I've learned this, I've learned this, I've learned this, and now how can I, how can I be asked a question by somebody else or listen to what somebody else has to share? It deepens and enrichens, I think the scope of what's possible.

[00:36:16] Sandra Wallin: And then in, of course, in the in-person, that's just. Natural because we're all in the same room together, so we're not separated from each other at all. But I think that having those diverse perception, I mean even, even in the basic workshop we just had, and Kim was, you guys were just here, uh. What, a week and a half ago or so, not, not very long ago.

[00:36:37] Sandra Wallin: And the, the makeup of that group was also incredibly e eclectic and unique. And yet the common, the common thread of love and kindness and curiosity and, and and presence, it just seems to always be there.

[00:36:55] Dr. Katie Deming MD: That's beautiful. So. Kim, I think one thing that I'd love to [00:37:00] know for, you know, our audience is as someone who is partnered with someone who's experiencing a diagnosis, what is this workshop? What is, what are the tools of PYSCH-Koffer that you have not found in other places? You know, like as, as you've gone through this experience of being alongside with Keith. What, what is, what about PYSCH-K cave just feels different for you and how, you know, why would other people be interested in this as partners?

[00:37:38] Kim Scanlon: well, I would say that I have, uh, my own history with the medical. System and have had a lot of encounters with it and have done, uh, a fair amount of somatic trauma. What's it called?

[00:37:53] Sandra Wallin: Somatic Re, yeah.

[00:37:55] Kim Scanlon: Yeah, somatic. Yeah, the whole, all nine yards. I've done a [00:38:00] lot of it. Um, and I've also had a wonderful therapist.

[00:38:05] Kim Scanlon: That's a really lucky thing if you ever get that. I've had one and. And, and so I approached ous thinking, right? And, uh, it is, it's different because it works, it's fast and it, here's the thing I would say, because I'm doing it with myself. Mostly, I mean, I have Sandra helping me and I've been working with Will Han and he's a marvel and I'm learning and I wanna keep learning with others.

[00:38:39] Kim Scanlon: But because I go in a room and I do it by myself, I feel like it's reconnecting me to my own instincts somehow. So instead of something alarming happening and I'm used to looking at Keith, but now Keith is, his attention is elsewhere and I don't, you know, [00:39:00] nobody can answer the kinds of existential quandaries we're in.

[00:39:04] Kim Scanlon: How do I love a man in this situation? And. Um, but I go in a room and I go to my, there's this confidence I'm getting in myself or whatever myself is. I don't know what myself is, but I'm getting confidence. I can go in a room, I can do one of the practices, and I feel reconnected to something in me. And I'm not as hungry for somebody else to help me, which is extraordinary.

[00:39:34] Kim Scanlon: And I had a friend, I was trying to talk about it to her and she said, well, is this just spiritual bypass? I said, okay. First of all, there is no spiritual bypass. When your husband has cancer, you don't, you, you, you can't just float up above it. It's not a thing. And secondly, it's not, it's more. It's more an, it is like all of a sudden I've got all this acreage in the back of me that I never knew I had and I'm going [00:40:00] in there and I'm playing and I come out and I'm stronger. And Can I say one more thing?

[00:40:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yes, please.

[00:40:09] Kim Scanlon: Well, I was talking to Keith about it this morning and, and he was saying. What he needs most at this point in his life is to reconnect with his instincts. And he said, I think Ske is, is helping me connect to my instincts. And I realized that it is doing that for me.

[00:40:32] Kim Scanlon: And one of the ways I know it is because we went to a really high stakes oncologist appointment about a. Oh, I dunno. A month ago. And we were gonna, they were gonna reveal some important scan results. Very important. And was the medicine working? Was it not? And, and I had done psychic hours every day up until that meeting just to [00:41:00] get enough ground to walk into that meeting.

[00:41:03] Kim Scanlon: And. That morning I got up early and I thought, I have time for one more s and it was like, I get one wish from the genie and I, so I, I just, you know, I've gotta wish something wonderful happening for Keith and stuff. And all of a sudden I thought, no, I just wanna wish, and it's not a wish, I just wanna balance for seeing the oncologist with new eyes

[00:41:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Hmm.

[00:41:26] Kim Scanlon: and I thought.

[00:41:28] Kim Scanlon: I thought, what a waste of your last balance. That is ridiculous. You've gotta get Keith out of this. And, and then I thought, Nope, that's what I want. And so I did that balance and we went into the appointment and she walked in and I did look at her and I saw this woman younger than me and I saw she had a baby three months ago. She's changed. I see it. She's a mom. And [00:42:00] my heart just opened to her and I wasn't in that space of, what are you gonna do to us? Are you gonna give us something good? Are you gonna, you know, just, I wasn't in that place. It was just this moment where time kind of slowed down and I just looked at her and I said, isn't that a trip?

[00:42:18] Kim Scanlon: And she said, oh yeah, you know, it was just this moment. Um, it was so sweet. And to me, that's part of why I love Pysch K is not just what I'm getting from it, or what I see us getting from it i's that I see my world getting bigger in a time where I, I could be hiding in a closet. So. That's, that's what I wanna say, and I wanna thank you both for your pairing up and, and offering this and being so, uh, impeccable about how you're offering it. Um, conveys, you can feel it.

[00:42:56] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Oh well. What you just said [00:43:00] so beautifully highlights what Sandra had said with that Wayne Dyer quote, right? When we change the way that we look at things, the things that we look at change and. Also, I love that what Keith said about connecting to your instincts. You know, and what's interesting for me is, you know, in my practice, water fasting has become like a very big part of my practice because I do see it.

[00:43:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: It is one of those ways to connect to your, so that's just so clear to me that I see that. But. You're absolutely right and the people that take PYSCH-Kas well. And, and one of the things I wanna say in here that, because you've described a couple things. One is that, you know, doing the work with a practitioner, right?

[00:43:49] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So doing some sessions with Sandra, doing some sessions with Will Han, and then also learning it yourself, right? So the online level one workshop that you [00:44:00] took was learning how to do the balances for yourself. And a lot of people say to me, well. Which one do I need? Do I, do I learn, you know, do I take the online level one so that I can learn to do it myself?

[00:44:11] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Or do I just go to a practitioner? And what you're describing and what is, what I see is what's most powerful is when people do a combination of both. When you have the professionals who really know how to facilitate. A good PYSCH-K case session to help get those shifts. And then also learning it yourself so that when you're at the doctor and you need to go into the bathroom to do a quick balance, you know how to do that, right?

[00:44:40] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, and that's what I, I teach my clients like. I want you using this before you go into your appointment. Like I love that you said that about using it before going into the oncologist appointment and shifting the perception of how you see her. Most people would never think that. For that to be a goal that you would want, but [00:45:00] how powerful, right?

[00:45:01] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like that just shifting the way that you see her as not someone coming in to do something to Keith, but someone who's, you know, a mother and who's got her own, you know, and she's coming in and that your heart can open to her. That impacts her openness to you, right? So it develop, it creates this whole new dynamic.

[00:45:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I honestly have nothing else to say after hearing what you just, the, what you just described is like captures the essence of exactly why I have partnered with Sandra and that Sandra has graciously, you know, created these online level one workshops specifically for my clientele because. It's a beautiful, beautiful practice that that can be learned with other beautiful human beings who are open to having this new perception and, you know, lightness and spaciousness.

[00:45:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And [00:46:00] so I'm just so say thank you so much for taking the workshop. Thank you for being that example that then Keith has been brought in and, and what a beautiful opening you guys are creating in your life. So I just, I really wanna say thank you for. Your openness to come on here and share and your willingness to, you know, get in there and do work that is a little different, you know, but, but obviously hugely valuable in your life.

[00:46:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So thank you.

[00:46:28] Kim Scanlon: Thank you.

[00:46:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I think we'll end there because there's really not much more to say after that. So thank you so much, Sandra, for being here. Thank you, Kim, for being here. And frankly, I think at some point if Keith is willing to come on, we would love to have him come on and, and you guys talk about that growth together because this is my thing.

[00:46:48] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know, everyone who comes to me is focused on eradicating cancer, right? I mean, that makes sense. I, you know, I'm an oncologist. People want to eradicate disease, but [00:47:00] what you're describing is happening in your life and in your relationship with Keith. In the midst of that diagnosis is really why I do this work,

[00:47:10] Dr. Katie Deming MD: there's this opening that happens that if you are willing to take the opening and explore it and with, you know, like a gentle.

[00:47:22] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Holding of this space. Such beautiful things can emerge in the midst of a crisis. And that is a choice, you know? And you've made that choice to step in in a way that is. Just beautiful and, and opening and also hard, like, I know this work is hard, but it's like the, the most beautiful things in life oftentimes are painful when we're going through it.

[00:47:45] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know, it's just like the gifts that can come through can be so beautiful. So thank you both of you for being on the show and, um, I hope to have you back with Keith someday. So thank you so much, both of

[00:47:58] Sandra Wallin: you,

[00:47:58] Kim Scanlon: Thank you. [00:48:00] Bye.

[00:48:01] ​

[00:48:01] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Thank you for being here today. Please enjoy a previous episode of Born To Heal, and if you found value in our conversation, please subscribe and share with someone who might benefit. Have questions, drop them in the YouTube comments or message me on Instagram or links are in the episode description. And remember, just like me, you were born to heal.