[00:00:00] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What would make a successful radiation oncologist with a 20 year career and lucrative salary walk away from it all to pursue a completely different approach to healing? Today you'll hear a conversation I had with one of my mentors, Dr. Thomas Cowan, on his podcast We discussed the moment I realized something was deeply wrong with our medical system, why I believe cancer stands from metabolic dysfunction, toxicity, and unprocessed emotional trauma, ~and hear about the remarkable rece ~and hear about the remarkable results I'm seeing with water, fasting, detoxification, and working with subconscious beliefs.[00:00:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Stay until the end. Hear my reflections on my first year in practice and the outcomes I've witnessed in clients ~who's choose~ who choose natural healing pathways versus conventional treatment alone. Let's dive in.

[00:00:53] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: this is. Another episode of conversations with Dr. Cowan and friends.

[00:00:58] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: I told I should [00:01:00] always say that, but I forget. So anyways, uh, welcome and maybe just start by, you know, who are you, what, how did, what was your journey? Because I've heard some of it and I, it sounds really fascinating. And so how did you get what happened here?

[00:01:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Sure. Well thank you Tom for having me. It's my pleasure to be here.

[00:01:22] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so I was a traditional radiation oncologist. I practiced for 20 years, um, specializing in breast and gynecologic cancers. And I also served as a healthcare leader, um, really running end-to-end cancer care for a large healthcare organization. In the US and in 2018 things started to pop up for me and, and the first time that I started to question my profession was when I was at a meditation retreat and I heard the parable of the river.

[00:01:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And the story [00:02:00] goes something like this. There's a, you know, once upon a time there was a village perched alongside of a river, and one day the villagers noticed a person drowning in the river. And so they sent someone out to rescue that person. And then the next day there were two people drowning and they organized and rescued those two people, and then the next day four, and then eight and 16, and it was doubling every day.

[00:02:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so the villagers became very organized and created elaborate rescue teams with boats and pulleys and rescue protocols. And the village elders praised the villagers for such an amazing job of rescuing the people outta the river. And I was at that meditation retreat with a good friend who's a GYN oncologist, and my heart just sunk.

[00:02:49] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I turned to her and I said, this is us. This is what we're doing. We are glorified rescue workers on the river. And like, what the heck is happening upstream? Like why is this [00:03:00] happening? And also, by the way, we're getting the people onto dry land, but then I have no idea what caused their cancer and who knows that they're gonna fall back in the river.

[00:03:10] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so that started in 2018, like where my wheel started turning and I was like, something is wrong here, but I couldn't put my finger on it because when you're living in that world, everything is. Organized around that and, and they're saying, you're doing such a good job. And I, but I knew something was off and in 2019 I started to hang,

[00:03:29] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: hang on a minute and, and just to say, I didn't say this, but I, I see some part of my role here in this is, and I may interrupt if and Sure.

[00:03:40] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Just to clarify things so I, and I, I don't forget. But the thing that, I mean, that's a great story. How did you end up at a meditation retreat in the first place?

[00:03:51] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I've always been, I would say, spiritual and seeking and, but not in my [00:04:00] career necessarily. So it was, I was into meditation. I was, um, for

[00:04:05] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: years I.

[00:04:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: For years. So I was raised Catholic and, but made to, you know, do the whole Catholic thing. And at 15 I just was so angry that I had been made to be confirmed and I basically hoped God and all things religious. And when I was 20, my sister's best friend died of a brain tumor, Pineoblastoma.

[00:04:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And she called me and she asked me to pray for her best friend, and she was so upset, and I just realized, I was like, oh my gosh, I can't pray. I, I really believed that there's something greater than me, but I couldn't pray to that, whatever it was, because here I had just abandoned it for. Since I was 15 and so that night I, I just pleaded with God or whatever is, you know, the source [00:05:00] and said, if you show me, I will seek you.

[00:05:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And the next morning when I was running, so. I was a professional triathlete, um, at one point, and so I had been continued to train and I, the next morning I was running and I came across a book in my pathway while I was running and, and I was like, I think that book is for me. And I, I was gonna go get a coffee and I said, if it's still there when I come back, I'm gonna pick it up.

[00:05:29] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I came back and the book was still there and I picked it up and it was Houston Smith's Religions of the World. And there was a chapter for all the different types of religions in the book. And for me, that started me on a journey of just seeking through spirituality and looking at different religions.

[00:05:49] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so I had kind of continued that through my entire adult life.

[00:05:55] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Would you say that was the first time, that's probably not the first time, [00:06:00] but uh, it was an important time in you realizing there was more. Ways of being spiritual than being a Catholic.

[00:06:11] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, because I think what had happened with Catholicism is I had just completely shut it down.

[00:06:16] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. And had just cut that part off and I was like, screw God, screw all this stuff. The guilt and the, you know, things that were taught in the church and, and then this was kind of an opening of me realizing like, oh, I do believe that there is something bigger and I wanna know what it is. And I don't want to follow dogma.

[00:06:35] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I want to kind of follow my own path.

[00:06:38] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Got it. And you know, it's interesting 'cause my impression, uh, even of this story with um, the, at the meditation retreat is that wasn't the first time for you.

[00:06:52] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:53] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: It's a sort, it's this sort of way, place to begin this story. But you'd been in this, you, [00:07:00] you know, even being a triathlete is not the usual path for most doctors.

[00:07:05] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: I mean, some that's not that unusual, but yeah. All right.

[00:07:09] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Well, and even my pathway into medicine was kind of unusual and, and death, as we will see is that has been a common thread throughout my, um, whole life. Yeah. But the way that I came into medicine was that I was a bio-psychology, a neuroscience major as an undergrad.

[00:07:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I was wondering like what I could do with that and, and I knew that medicine was one of the things and my mom, who was a nurse practitioner was kind of cautioning me against it. And so I was like, okay, well what's the one thing that I really wouldn't like about medicine? And I said, well, I'd never been around.

[00:07:49] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I. Anyone in close to me in my family who had died, I actually had a best, not a best friend, but very close friend, die in fourth grade of leukemia. But, um, I really [00:08:00] hadn't had much experience with death. And so I thought that being around people dying would be the worst part of medicine. So I decided, and this is unusual, this is probably when you'd be listening to the story and being like, this is weird.

[00:08:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like, what is, what's going on with this girl? But I basically was thinking that death would be the hardest. Thing that to deal with in medical school. And so I went ahead and volunteered at hospice and that experience. Oh. Changed my life and, um, I learned things from being around people who were dying that I had not been taught, you know, by my family or whatever.

[00:08:35] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like what, what did they wish they had done differently? What do they wish they did more of? You know? And, and things that I heard then and then continue to hear throughout my career is, you know, they wish they had the courage to be themselves and be authentic. And so that was just like really beautiful being around people.

[00:08:55] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Who were facing their own mortality, and [00:09:00] that's why I actually went into oncology. And so, yeah.

[00:09:05] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Would you say, would you say it's a characteristic of you to, uh, figure out or determine in some way or somehow that happens, what would be hard for you and then try to do it?

[00:09:24] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Well, and actually the funny thing is when you invited me to your staff meetings, I was like intimidated.

[00:09:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: 'cause I'm new in this space and I was scared. And actually I was like, shoot, I mean this is, it was the first day of school for my daughter when I first came to your staff meeting. And I was like, I could just cancel and say, you know, it's the first day of school and it's too stressful. And I was like, no, you're scared, so you're gonna go because.

[00:09:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: That actually means that you're in the right spot if you're pushing yourself and you're, it's making you feel uncomfortable. So in everything that I've done, I was a springboard diver before I was a triathlete, and that's all about fear and conquering your [00:10:00] fear. So this is, that's definitely been a theme for me.

[00:10:04] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: I mean, it, yeah, it's a, it's a profound insight into life. Like for instance, you know Tom Brady, the football player, when he was asked, how come he got to be Tom Brady, you know, the football player? He said, I only worked on things that I was bad at. Now a lot of us who've been athletes and other things, what you realize is that you practice the things you're good at.

[00:10:35] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Because it's fun, right? You, you know, like, I'm good at doing this shot, so I keep doing it over and over. Look at how good I am. And you, you never become, you know, Tom Brady as far as a football player because that's not the way to, to get anywhere. And it's a hard lesson to learn. And it seems like you, you [00:11:00] sort of got the hang of that.

[00:11:02] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Well, I think that's. It served me well. Yeah. You know, and, and I've come to the top of, you know, not the very top of fields, but come gotten pretty high up. Like I, you know, was a division one diver in college, and then I. I got injured and I couldn't dive, and my coach said to, you know, stay in shape. My boyfriend was a triathlete, my third triathlon, I made the national team and was, you know, a professional triathlete train, you know, traveling the world.

[00:11:32] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And then in medicine, I, you know, ended up at the end of my career, right before I left, I was nominated for the National Medical Director of one of the largest healthcare organizations in the us. And I know that now, I like cringe. I'm like, oh, it wasn't real good work that I was doing, but. This fear, you know, um, really embracing my fears and just going after things has allowed me to yeah.

[00:11:55] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Accomplish things that I wouldn't have been able to do if I hadn't been willing to go [00:12:00] into the fear.

[00:12:00] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Yeah. No. And be uncomfortable. That's a kind of a synopsis of how to succeed or how, how to get the most out of yourself. That's a funny way to say it, but you know. Yeah. All right. That's fascinating. All right, so now we go, you had this meditation and then I interrupted you what was gonna happen next?

[00:12:23] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, so in 2019 I started to get the message that you're not supposed to be practicing radiation oncology. And, and that message just didn't make sense. And I had been telling my husband, and you are

[00:12:34] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: like national Radiation oncologist of the year sort of. Whatever,

[00:12:40] Dr. Katie Deming MD: whatever. Right. Who, but yeah, I was also an entrepreneur, so I have a patent and I have a, I had a clothing line for women with sensitive skin from radiation treatments, and so I was doing that and all these, you know, but I knew that I wasn't gonna leave medicine to go run an apparel brand that was really just as like a service, like a [00:13:00] passion project to help these women find comfortable clothes.

[00:13:02] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But I was starting to say to my husband. Something's off. Like, I don't know if this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And he was saying, well, you didn't finish training until you were 32. Like, what are you gonna do? And, and I was just like, I don't know. I just am getting this message and I don't know what it means.

[00:13:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so he basically said to me that. You know, if you are not happy making half a million dollars a year, you know you are good at your job, you're doing something meaningful, treating cancer, your colleagues love you, your patients love you, and you have like everything you would want materially, maybe you're never gonna be happy.

[00:13:41] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like maybe the problem is you're never gonna be satisfied. And so I in turn now I know that that's obviously not, not correct, but, and we're no longer being, it's one way

[00:13:52] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: to look at it,

[00:13:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: correct.

[00:13:54] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Yeah,

[00:13:55] Dr. Katie Deming MD: so I internalized that for a while and was trying to figure out like, [00:14:00] reconcile, why am I having these feelings?

[00:14:02] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And two events happened and both coming back to the theme of death. One was that I had been with a patient with, she transitioned and this was actually using medical aid and dying, and I had. N only done, I only had one patient who ever ended up taking those medications. She had advanced esophageal cancer.

[00:14:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: She was 83. She didn't want to die suffocating on her saliva. And I had, when I moved to Oregon. Learned that it was legal and had my first patient request this, I had said, no, I can't do this. Like I took an oath to do no harm and I really couldn't. I couldn't reconcile it, but there was a movie called How to Die in Oregon that came out that changed my mind that I said, okay, well, you know.

[00:14:55] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Maybe this is a humane thing to do. And so then I just made [00:15:00] myself available that if any of my patients wanted to pursue this and they met criteria that I would do it. And not only would I prescribe that, but I said that if they wanted me there with them at the bedside, I would be there with them. So in 2019, I helped a patient transition.

[00:15:16] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And it was beautiful

[00:15:17] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: means gave them Metis drugs.

[00:15:19] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. I didn't administer it. They have to take it themselves. Right. But I had prescribed it and then she ended up taking it and um, it was actually like a, just the most beautiful spiritual experience. Her daughter, myself and her. And, um, but when I left her house, I had this knowing that when I leave this life.

[00:15:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I'm leaving alone and I'm mean, I have to answer to myself that I lived my life in a way that was aligned with what I knew to be true. And um, and I knew that had something to do with my husband hang

[00:15:58] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: you. You were, you said [00:16:00] you knew you were leaving alone, yet this person had other people with her.

[00:16:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Right.

[00:16:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But when you leave this body, your soul, when you leave this. Yeah, vehicle that we have that we then encounter our wholeness and we are accountable for how we lived our lives. That's what I mean in terms of we leave alone. Yeah. Like no one's coming with me and I can't point to my husband and say, well, I stayed in radiation oncology because he wanted me to.

[00:16:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. It was that kind of thing. Yeah. So that happened in 2019. That just started me thinking like, oh, I have to really grapple with this. And then in 2020. I ended up having an experience called a shared death experience, and this is like a near death experience, but different in that the person who has it doesn't transition.

[00:16:52] Dr. Katie Deming MD: They, it's usually. Healthcare professionals or emergency personnel who are at the scene where someone dies, [00:17:00] someone else there has a metaphysical experience of experiencing the light and the love and all of that. And so that happened to me in the fall of 2020 and like a near death experience. It totally fundamentally shifted things for me, and all of a sudden I could see.

[00:17:20] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What we were doing in Western medicine was wrong. Like, this is not correct. This is not the way that you heal cancer. And so after that event, I was like, I have to leave, but I also know that that means that it's gonna cause me a divorce. It's gonna, you know, I'm gonna have to do this on my own, you know, and it's, it's, it was, it was a big deal.

[00:17:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I basically, it took me.

[00:17:50] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Up until then, you kept from the time of this, this other experience. Until then, you kept being a radiation oncologist. Yeah,

[00:17:58] Dr. Katie Deming MD: so I, yeah. And [00:18:00] even in 2020 I was still practicing and actually that shared death experience happened one week after I had finished. I. Interviewing for the National Medical director position for, I had been nominated for, um, that position for the, you know, all of the United States.

[00:18:19] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Got it. And I knew that I, I, it came down to me and one other woman and I didn't get it. And I was like, I know I'm meant to build something, but I know it's not within the system. Like I knew that as soon as that happened, and then the next week I had the shared death experience. And so basically then it took me a year and a half.

[00:18:40] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You fleshed

[00:18:41] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: out how, like what you saw, heard, felt, or what? Sure. I don't know what,

[00:18:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: yeah. What

[00:18:48] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: this experience was that said, this is not the way we're supposed to do medicine.

[00:18:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I. Sure. So what happened was that I was meditating again. Again. So I was, it was [00:19:00] my practice to meditate. But I, and maybe I'll just tell you the full story.

[00:19:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I don't always tell this full story because it's a little weird and I think that sometimes people aren't, but I know that you can hang with the weirdness, so. What happened was that I had, um, a woman that I knew from, like she was a trauma therapist and also a, um, had, you know, traditional therapist and I had seen her for trauma therapy just 'cause I had trauma from my childhood.

[00:19:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And then she had moved into doing more like drumming ceremonies and kind of shamanic work and. She called me. This was like around that time when I, that week that I had, um, or I guess around the time when I was finishing the interviewing for that job and a week before I had the shared death experience.

[00:19:50] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And she said to me, she said, I. This is gonna be the weirdest phone call and it's very uncomfortable because she said, you're a doctor and I'm a therapist, and I would never do this. But she [00:20:00] said, I have to stop the messages. She says, the messages just will not stop coming. And she said, spirit is telling.

[00:20:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I didn't know like Spirit. I'm like, all of this was totally foreign to me. And she said, spirit has told me over and over and over, you have very big power and I have to help you. And I was like, whose spirit? And like, what does that mean? What are you talking about? And she's like, I don't know. And I said, well, what do you think we should do?

[00:20:28] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And she said, well, maybe we should do a drumming ceremony. So the day of my shared death experience, that afternoon, I had gone to this woman's house and she had done this drumming. And basically it was just, you know. Um, frequency, like elevating my frequency through this drumming. And she had had me gather some things from her studio to put on the altar before we did the drumming.

[00:20:52] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And one of the things that I had picked to put on the altar was this giant apo light stone. It was literally, I could barely hold it. It was [00:21:00] probably like 50 pounds. And so we had done the drumming ceremony. And then she said, the stone wants to go with you. And I was like with me, where I was like, this giant stone.

[00:21:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: She's like, yeah, the stone wants to go with you. And I was like, what? So I was like, okay. So I'm like, if you'll help me get into the car, I'll take this thing home. But it was this giant stone. And so I take the stone home. And that night I normally meditated in the morning, but the stone was calling to me and it was like, come, put your hands on me.

[00:21:35] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So like, okay. Yeah. Did you

[00:21:36] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: hear it or? Yes,

[00:21:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I, I heard it.

[00:21:39] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And, um, and even though. I haven't been like open spiritually like I was always seeking. So I'm always, and I'm always game. I'm always like, like this is the whole fear thing. I'm like, I'm like, okay, I am. Yeah, I'm just gonna go check it out, see what's going on.

[00:21:54] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So the stone was calling to me. So I went down and I put my hands on it and I started just [00:22:00] meditating and basically I was just like breathing and clearing my mind. And immediately when I started meditating, a woman's voice started talking to me and what she said was. I can't let go, but it's not because of me, it's because of them.

[00:22:15] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And instinctively I knew she was dying and I knew she was talking about her family or friends. And so then I just started talking to her and in my mind and basically said to her. There's no rush. You'll know when it's time and I'll stay with you. And I kind of just stayed with her as if it was someone who was in my physical presence.

[00:22:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And at some point in the meditation I saw that this woman was this, a woman named Misty. I had never met Misty, but I had been helping Misty's best friend care for her as she was dying of breast cancer because her best friend was one of my colleagues at work. She was an administrator [00:23:00] within cancer care.

[00:23:00] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I. And I had been helping her make sure with Misty's wishes were honored and that she could stay home and that she, and also helping her cope with the loss of a good friend. And they were both in their early thirties, so just helping coaching my friend through that. And so I saw that this was Misty. And then I just stayed with her and basically at some point in the meditation I started to feel something pulling away from her body, which now I would describe as her soul.

[00:23:32] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I. And I started to hear pops like pop, pop, pop, pop. And then all of a sudden it was like a whoosh of air opened up and she gasped and said, oh my gosh, I never had to worry. It's so beautiful. And as soon as she said that she was gone. And I was just engulfed in like. Uh, the sun. I, it is the best way I can describe it.

[00:23:56] Dr. Katie Deming MD: It was just like, in just complete love and light, [00:24:00] like ineffable, you can't explain what that feels like. And so I was in that space for. Hard to know because like time just doesn't exist. But I was there for some period of time and then I came out of it and I was like, what just happened? Like, what was that?

[00:24:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I didn't do any drugs in that drumming ceremony. I didn't, I hadn't taken any drugs and I didn't tell my husband when I went to sleep 'cause I was like, he's gonna think I'm crazy. And so I went to sleep and the next morning I woke up to a text. I. From my colleague with a picture of Misty saying, thank you for all of your help with Misty.

[00:24:41] Dr. Katie Deming MD: She died last night. And I was like, no shit.

[00:24:46] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: I was like, no. She didn't know. She, yeah, she didn't know.

[00:24:50] Dr. Katie Deming MD: She didn't know anything. And I was like. I don't know if I tell her. 'cause I didn't wanna upset her, you know, at the, the moment I didn't know what to do [00:25:00] with that. And so I said, you know, you're welcome. I'm sorry for your loss.

[00:25:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I said, I know this is a weird question, but what time did Misty die? And sure enough, she died within minutes of the time that I had been in meditation with her.

[00:25:14] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: So, and that woman was with her?

[00:25:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:17] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Yeah.

[00:25:18] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Wow. And, um, so eventually I told her, and actually it was comforting for the family and my friend, and they said that they, you know, Misty had been resisting.

[00:25:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So she, I forget whether she was late twenties or early thirties, but very young. And she had really been resisting and they were like, they knew she was ready, but she didn't wanna go and for like five days. And what they described was that on Sunday night or whatever night this was, I can't remember that night, all of a sudden she just relaxed and they had all surmised that someone from the other side, like maybe a family member or friend who had already passed, had come and helped her.

[00:25:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so when they [00:26:00] heard this story, they're like, oh, that's so helpful to know because we saw that she was struggling, struggling, struggling, struggling. And then all of a sudden just became totally peaceful. And you know, it happened very quickly. So, and I know now that that happened as confirmation for me to confirm that that did really happen.

[00:26:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: 'cause I think otherwise I would've been like, I don't know what that experience was, you know? But after that I started to really change. And the best way that I can describe it, the rock? No. Okay. So the rock went back to the woman. So that was the rock's purpose, I guess. So I gave the rock back to the woman.

[00:26:41] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Really you decided, or did the rock tell you?

[00:26:47] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I think I said to her, you know, whenever you feel like the rock's supposed to come back, 'cause it's like this, I mean we probably have thousands of dollars for this beautiful APO light, you know, and it was hers. Yeah. [00:27:00] And she had loaned it to me, so I didn't even think about, you know.

[00:27:03] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But what's interesting that you bring this up is I had just recently, um. And, and also there's an energetic component to my work, which you and I have not talked about before. But, um, I now have an apophyllite stone of my own that's big that I, that I'm, that I'm using.

[00:27:19] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Got it.

[00:27:20] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So, but um, anyway, so I. What happened with that was that I just started to change and I started to see things more clearly and I could start to see like, oh, this system is really broken, but I can't say that I saw it in that event.

[00:27:37] Dr. Katie Deming MD: It was more like something changed me and I. The best way that I've been able to wrap my head around it from a logical perspective, which I think this is not logical and reason doesn't apply here, but is through David Hawkins work, and he talks about with near death experiences when people cross over outside the veil, that they're bathed with these very high frequencies and that it fundamentally shifts [00:28:00] them.

[00:28:01] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And that, for me, I feel like is what happened. And I almost feel like I'm an antenna, and my antenna was tuned by that event. And so now. When I, I used to just read voraciously, like I could read, you know, I'd read at least 80 books a year and just consuming, consuming information. And now I like tune and if something catches my attention and resonates, I.

[00:28:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Then I'll dive in and read something. And actually that's how I came across your work is that I saw a lecture, I think it was from the Wise Traditions conference about like what makes us sick and what doesn't make us sick and, and that my antenna just was like, you know, oh, this is resonant. And then I just started diving into reading your work and, um, reading your books.

[00:28:50] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But, so that's, when I say that it. It showed me things. It wasn't like it showed me a picture, it was just like, it fundamentally shifted something for me where I could no longer ignore [00:29:00] these signs. And so basically then I knew I had to leave, but I also knew that that was gonna dismantle my life, you know?

[00:29:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so I basically had to walk through that and ultimately I resigned or left my job in radiation oncology in the summer of 22.

[00:29:18] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: That was like how long after that experience?

[00:29:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: That was a year and a half because it basically, it happened in the fall of 2020 and then in December of 2021 is when I finally had the courage to tell my husband that I was like, I can't, I know that you don't understand this and you're not a gonna be a long for this ride, but I have to leave.

[00:29:37] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And one of the big sticking points with that was. He was like, well, if you knew what you were gonna do and you just jump into administration or another job, it's fine if you don't wanna be a radiation oncologist. But what I said to him is I was like, I don't trust anything. I'm like, I'm not going into any training.

[00:29:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I'm not jumping into administrative. I need to leave this system so that I can figure out what's right and what's wrong and [00:30:00] what is going on. And that's what he couldn't sign up for.

[00:30:06] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: It's in, I mean, it's inter, we could. Yeah, I don't know if that's worth exploring. It's like, 'cause it seems obvious that you couldn't just, if given what you experienced, that you couldn't just go, well now I'll just be an administrator.

[00:30:24] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Right. I mean, but anyways, that's okay.

[00:30:26] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Which is why ultimately I think that relationship had to end. He wasn't, you know, I couldn't be doing the things that I'm doing now if I was still married to him. So that needed to happen.

[00:30:36] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Got it. Got it. All right, so then you quit. And so then, then what happens?

[00:30:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So I quit in the summer of 2022. And I mean, it's funny, I'm like, do I go all in with you, Tom? Um. Yeah, let's just do it.

[00:30:58] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: By the way, we're, we're this [00:31:00] public, although we, we don't have to pub, we don't have to, uh, post

[00:31:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: it. Yeah. Well, let, I'm just gonna be totally transparent and I'm, I don't share all of these things in every space because I don't feel like every audience can handle them, but handle it.

[00:31:13] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But what I realized in retrospect was what had happened when my shared death experience was that I had come into a coaching program. For someone, and unbeknownst to me, the energy of that coaching program was being held by a very powerful shaman. I. And basically the car, I'm just gonna give the short story of this, but the Carlos Castaneda books about Don Juan are very popular, right?

[00:31:43] Dr. Katie Deming MD: People Now, I think you remember that, but maybe younger people don't remember those books. But, um, the books were about Don Juan, uh, you know, Yaki Indian Shaman, but really a sorcerer, like a very powerful, and the, the whole concept of the books was that [00:32:00] Carlos had apprenticed with this sorcerer. And, um, Carlos never apprenticed with that soer.

[00:32:06] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Those stories were actually of a 13-year-old boy, which makes more sense. This is kind of how shamans are trained. It was a 13-year-old boy who had ingested all those plant medicines and done all that work with Don Juan, and he sold his story to Carlos because his father had died and he had to support his family.

[00:32:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And Carlos said, nobody's gonna believe that. A 13-year-old boy ingest all these plant medicines, so I'm just gonna make myself the apprentice. And um, the boy was like, well, I don't care. You know, he got approved, he got permission from Don Juan to sell these stories and so that he could support his family.

[00:32:43] Dr. Katie Deming MD: 'cause his dad had died. He was putting his brother through medical school. 'cause his dad's dream was his brother to become a doctor. So he was putting his brother through medical school and supporting his mom and sister at age 14. So he sold these stories to Carlos. And then as we know, those became [00:33:00] very, very popular.

[00:33:01] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Carlos made millions and millions of dollars. And actually, anyway, um,

[00:33:06] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: that is, and I, I just as a aside, I had had a big influence on my life and in fact, I've actually given talks about it and, and now I'm realizing I probably knew nothing about it. But, um.

[00:33:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Okay. So, and we, I hope that's

[00:33:24] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: fine. Yes. I mean, that's, that's fine.

[00:33:27] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: So,

[00:33:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: yeah. But so, and actually this may make sense to you is people started to question at some point, 'cause Car, the first four books were real apprenticing with Don Juan. Right. Carlos wrote the rest of them on his own and they became a little bit distorted and Yeah. So, and then Carlos became kind of distorted and people started questioning like, was Don Juan even real?

[00:33:48] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And did this happen? Right. And anyway. That young boy is now a 70-year-old man and he is as powerful, [00:34:00] probably more powerful than Don Juan and I had. I. Come into his, you know, frequency through this coaching program. And because I'm so sensitive, I had just opened from that and that's how my spiritual gifts started opening.

[00:34:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And ultimately I ended up, you know, connecting with this person and now, um, mentor and, and probably would call, I'm an apprentice to this.

[00:34:30] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Very, very, did he identify you or you had just were part of the program?

[00:34:36] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Okay, well, let's, I'll just, uh, so the, the, the program, what started to happen was I started to remember things like I, I started to be like, I'm here for a reason and I don't know.

[00:34:53] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I didn't know what it was, but I could just sense, and I started getting these messages and then also gifts started opening up. Like I [00:35:00] could, I can actually help people transition when they're dying and I can, um, sense. Emotional trauma in the body that's causing illness in the body. And these were just things that started to open for me and um, because I was in this group, you could get on his list to actually do a call with him.

[00:35:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: The way that he works with people and now doesn't actually, um. His list is all closed, but at the time it was open, you could get on a wait list and then the way that he works is you do a phone call where he connects to your, you know, basically. Based on your time of birth, location of birth, um, and uh, yeah, I think that's basically, you know, identifying you in the quantum field.

[00:35:51] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And then he channels basically what comes through and you have a call and then you do candle work with him, which is basically healing your [00:36:00] light body through the elements, through water, through fire, through different earth elements. And so in. December of 20, basically I had gotten on his list and the list was like four years at the time.

[00:36:14] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And um, so I was on his wait list, but then I happened to be, I. With some girlfriends from that, that coaching program that actually had already had their call with him and are working with him. And, and they were, his wife was gonna come have dinner with them. And I didn't know that this was not normal.

[00:36:33] Dr. Katie Deming MD: This is, these are not public people, these are people who, you know, work in the background. And so she came to have dinner with us and, um, when she sat down and she started talking. I felt a male energy coming through her eyes and a. Jaguar, like it is almost hard to say. Like it was like a Jaguar, a male jaguar coming through her eyes [00:37:00] and immediately I felt the love of God, like, like what I had felt when I had gone, you know, on my shared death experience outside the veil.

[00:37:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And then also I had already helped a couple of patients with that. And so I knew what that felt like and she was explaining that he came in complete. This is like a different being. This is, you know, we come in and we forget who we, we are, but this, this is someone who comes in remembering who they are.

[00:37:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And so, you know, she talked and, you know, we went through the whole night and then I said to her at the end, I said, okay, um, your husband is not like us. Like he holds the frequency of God. And I know that just because I had crossed outside the veil and, um. So then she said, you're correct. And she said, your call is gonna be in a couple months.

[00:37:52] Dr. Katie Deming MD: So all of a sudden I was moved up the list and had my call. And usually people, you know, he's probably worked with thousands and thousands of people [00:38:00] just like healing through the elements with the candles and stuff. And there are very few people on the planet who, whoever ever met him. But then I ended up meeting him and, and basically I work with him and he also guides my practice.

[00:38:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Practice and helps me energetically in the healing for my clients. And, um, I never expected that or, you know, but it, you know, it's programmed, right? Like we come in and everything is programmed on a spiritual level and, you know, he's explained that to me. There's a reason why you have an md. There's a reason why we've come back together and, um, so.

[00:38:39] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And I didn't expect to share all of this with you, and I'm okay with it actually being out there because I think at some point I'm gonna have to say what's really going on. But, um, so yeah.

[00:38:51] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Is there a choice in the program? I. Do you get Well, the

[00:38:54] Dr. Katie Deming MD: program, so the program was just like, I was just in a coaching program that was three months, and then I was done.

[00:38:59] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah,

[00:38:59] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: no, I mean the, [00:39:00] the, the big program, like,

[00:39:01] Dr. Katie Deming MD: oh yes, absolutely. Free choice. Yeah. So I could have been like, you're crazy. I'm outta here. Right? Yeah. So, absolutely. No, and actually to choose Intuit, this is a very challenging path because he teaches through allegory and it's all coded, and so. A lot of people choose out, you know, who are walking this path because it's fricking hard.

[00:39:26] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I had to give up everything, right? Like, you know, and then, so what ended up happening is when I left my job in 2022, I thought that I would be able to then take a couple months off and then make,

[00:39:38] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: before you left your job.

[00:39:41] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What's that?

[00:39:41] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: You, did this session happen, this meeting before you left your job?

[00:39:46] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, so I, um, I made the decision to leave in December of 2021.

[00:39:52] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I. And that was like the same month that I had my call with him. So I had not met him, but I had my call and immediately [00:40:00] after I had my call and started working with him through the elements, my whole life blew up and my husband was like forcing me to get the vaccine and I was like, I'm not doing it. And so it just blew up my marriage.

[00:40:11] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Like all of a sudden everything blew up. Like I had told him I was making the decision to leave, but then it just all of a sudden things kind of exponentially. Started to unravel. So that was, I started doing candle ceremonies in December and then met him for the first time in March. I left, you know, left my job in July and then, and then really started seeing him more regularly and spending time with him and I having physical contact, you know, after I left, but.

[00:40:41] Dr. Katie Deming MD: What he explained was that you need time to heal. Like you can't give people what you don't have. Yeah. And so you need to do your own internal work and healing before you can go out in the world and help other people. And so I spent from, you know, the [00:41:00] summer of 2022 until October of 2023, really doing my own internal work and healing and working with him, and then launched my practice in, not even a year ago now, so October of 2023.

[00:41:15] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Just what, what, describe this practice like what do you mean by a practice?

[00:41:20] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, so my practice, you know, I work with people on a 3D level, helping them detoxify their body and nourish themselves physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and helping them strip away the conditioning to get aligned.

[00:41:38] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But then also, um, energetically he is working with my, not everyone, so I do consults, but then people who end up working with me on an ongoing basis end up working with him through the elements as well. And so there's this energetic component, and then I'm facilitating the [00:42:00] things that they need to do to get themselves cleared out, you know, on a like, um, more physical level.

[00:42:07] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And

[00:42:08] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: what kind of people come to this? Are these like sick people? Cancer patients? Cancer only? Cancer patients?

[00:42:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Um, I, you know, I'm open to seeing people who don't have cancer or are, you know, wanting to heal from other things. But my practice has been primarily about cancer.

[00:42:35] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: This is, it's an online thing? Or do you see people in person?

[00:42:39] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, so my, um, work is all virtual.

[00:42:42] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: All virtual. Wow. So

[00:42:49] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I think I stumped you. I'm like surprised you.

[00:42:53] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Well, yeah, but let me, I'm gonna keep going here. I'm gonna plug along. So given [00:43:00] that, what, what do you think his cancer is?

[00:43:04] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I think that we are overloaded with toxins and that we're not nourishing ourselves in the way that we're meant to.

[00:43:12] Dr. Katie Deming MD: We're disconnected from nature. We're, you know, getting interference from EMFs and Blue Light, all the things that you say really feel like cancer is an imbalance of. Healthy functioning of the body. You know, we're basically not getting the nourishment that we need to like make ourselves healthy. And then we've got all of these toxins and basically this is an imbalance and that's what I work with, with my clients.

[00:43:40] Dr. Katie Deming MD: My whole practice is about helping them detoxify and then nourish themselves with good, healthy foods. Similar to what you recommend with Western a price and, um, you know, getting the. Connection with others and connecting with earth and sun and, and all of the things to [00:44:00] that Our bodies need that. If we have that, you know, cancer, we all have had cancer cells.

[00:44:05] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I mean, now this is a question for, I mean, you and I, we've had conversations about this. What is cancer? I really think that it is toxicity. I don't know if it's the packaging of the toxins or if it's because the cells get so to, and i, I know I'm like using the word cell, but I'm just gonna say it because I'm not sure yet.

[00:44:23] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But you know, whether you have this switch into fermentation because the cells are so toxified and the mitochondria aren't working, I really think that, that it's all about the mitochondria for cancer. Um, but yeah.

[00:44:39] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: And what do the mitochondria do?

[00:44:43] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Well, I think that this is, you know, and actually the reason why I came across you, I wanna come back to that and then I can answer this question.

[00:44:50] Dr. Katie Deming MD: But the reason why I came upon your work is that I was, you know, listening to that lecture and then I, I saw that you had a book, [00:45:00] um, human Heart, cosmic Heart, and when I saw that book I said, oh, that probably is an answer for my boyfriend. And I started reading that book because he had heart failure. He was a professional athlete and basically was winning professional races at age 50 and diagnosed with heart failure because his PCP hadn't ordered an EKG, and he sent him for an echo and basically had an EF of 15%, which for your listeners who don't know, that EF of 15% means you can't walk to the front door, let alone Yeah.

[00:45:32] Dr. Katie Deming MD: The mailbox. So winning a professional cycling race at age 50 is just bonkers. And so I was trying to find answers about that. And when you started talking about the water. My mentor, he's been talking to me about water, water, water, water, water, water for like a year. And I was like, are you talking about water they drink or what it was like, but it's all in.

[00:45:58] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Coded right. And so [00:46:00] unless my frequency was at a place where I could actually catch what he was saying, I could not get it. And when I started reading your books, I was like, oh my God, this is it. I was like, I finally figured out what he's been talking about with water. And so I think the mitochondria are responsible for structuring the water in our cells and, and this is the problem, so.

[00:46:23] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Y you actually are tied in with this, you know, whole thing and, and, and it's not an accident that I came across you, you know, and that we've connected and it's also not an accident that you had given lectures about Don, Juan and all of that. So I don't know what that means, but, um, this is just kind of the way my life is unfolding at this point, which is magical and also quite bonkers.

[00:46:50] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Okay. Okay. Um, before we get into how people can find you and maybe work with you, I, I'm going to, I, I'm gonna say [00:47:00] one story that I heard, and then I, I'm gonna try to see if I can find this article, uh, that, that could, I'd be fascinated to hear what you think. So it was a. It was an, an anthropo doctor in Europe.

[00:47:15] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: I'm not sure where, I think Germany, but it may have been not Germany. And he claim he, his thing was he could see that, what they call in anthroposophy, the etheric body or the water body or mm-hmm. The life body. And he also had a strong interest in. The dying process and helping people through the dying process.

[00:47:42] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: And he, he said that he could see, so in, in anthroposophy they say that death means that this life body separates from the physical body, and then the physical body is just dust, you know, or just he does what minerals and the [00:48:00] earth elements do. So he could see this. Happen and he could see this similar to what you were describing.

[00:48:10] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: He then only once had an occasion of a, and it sounded like a, a, a woman who was horribly suffering, just the worst you could imagine, like rectal cancer or vaginal cancer that had. Through the recto vaginal wall. And, you know, the, the stool was coming out through vagina and horrible pain and the woman begged her to help her, you know, uh, do the transition.

[00:48:39] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: And he didn't want to, but he did. And what he saw was a fragmentation of this etheric body as it left. So instead of coming out in, I don't even know the words, like one piece, it came out like, like, it was [00:49:00] like it had been disintegrated or broken into hundreds or 20, or I don't know how many pieces. And it, it had an incredible difficult time coming back together.

[00:49:14] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: And he said he is never gonna do that again. Is that.

[00:49:21] Dr. Katie Deming MD: And, and are you, I guess my question is, is the question related to, because he helped her transition that the way that that, that the body, that the light body was somehow affected by that choice of the end? Is that the question or what is the question?

[00:49:37] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Or just,

[00:49:38] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: I don't know. There's just a, I. Yeah, I happened to that. I was very much affected by that story because, you know, and I don't know if it's true, I don't know the guy, so I don't know if he really seeing what he says he is seeing. Anyways, that was, uh, that was the end of any interest I ever would've had, which I never really did in assisted [00:50:00] suicide.

[00:50:00] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: 'cause if that'ss really, what happens?

[00:50:03] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Well, well what's interesting is that, um. I did not have that. So I did see the lights leave my client patient that I helped in 2019. I didn't realize I had that gift. Now I, you know what I'm saying, in retrospect now I know what I saw, but, but hers was like all together.

[00:50:25] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. Yeah. It

[00:50:26] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: sounds.

[00:50:27] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah. And so, but I do know that the light body can be de fragmented from trauma and all these things. And, and part of the integration when someone, um, releases this body is that they need to reintegrate with their wholeness. And that can take time depending on, and that's why in this lifetime it's so important to come to peace and.

[00:50:56] Dr. Katie Deming MD: You know, be truthful about what you know [00:51:00] is your truth, because then you can have peace when you leave. 'cause it, you really do, there it can be fragmented from living in this reality. Um, it you, we can get all messed up from it and it takes time to reintegrate. Yeah.

[00:51:17] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: My, my take on what you just said then is he saw something.

[00:51:23] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: That was a real experience, but it was for that person and it's, he, he generalized it. So that's always what happens. And that's probably not a, uh, was not a valid generalization, but it did happen with that one person. All right, so we're not a time, uh, I have only one final thing to say, but tell people how they can contact you or, or if they wanna work with you or, or.

[00:51:51] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Hear more about what you're doing or any of that stuff.

[00:51:54] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Sure. So my website is katie deming.com and I have a podcast called Born to Heal, [00:52:00] where I bring on guests to share the things that I wish I had been taught in medical school so that my listeners can learn along with me about true healing.

[00:52:10] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Got it.

[00:52:13] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: And that's where they would sign up, like to do a consultation or something?

[00:52:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Yeah, you can find that on my website.

[00:52:19] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: You know, I, I occasionally run across a person who I, uh, who I'm going to say, what I'm going to say about my impression right now is, so I've spent my life thinking about these things, but not experiencing them, and in a way, wishing that I had experienced them.

[00:52:42] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Maybe I do in some way that I'm not appreciating, and it's. Incredibly powerful to hear the story of somebody in this case, you, who actually has done more than thinking about it, but actually has experienced [00:53:00] the water and the, and how the soul works. And it's, it's, it's great. I just, it's, yeah, it's, it's a gift that you're willing to share that with people, which is inspiring and gives people a new way of being in the world.

[00:53:20] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: And it's, it's, I think, really the essence of courage to do that. 'cause it's not easy 'cause people can say all kinds of stuff. Anyways, that's, that's what I got out of this. So thank you for sharing all this.

[00:53:37] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Thank you, Tom.

[00:53:38] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Amazing to hear and I look forward to a lot of further collaboration.

[00:53:44] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I. I love it.

[00:53:45] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Well, thank you for being open and actually it feels good to share this more openly because it, it is weird, right? So I think that's why I haven't shared it is just because I don't think a lot of people [00:54:00] can understand it. And um, so thank you. I

[00:54:03] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: have a saying now, if it isn't weird, it's probably wrong.

[00:54:08] Dr. Katie Deming MD: I love that.

[00:54:10] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: Because all the things I think are actually accurate, are weird. So if it's not weird, it's probably wrong.

[00:54:17] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Perfect. Then I'm in the right place.

[00:54:19] Dr. Thomas Cowan MD: You're in the right place. All right, Katie Deming, thanks everybody. And I, I'm actually looking forward to the comments. I always get comments on these things and uh, we will be in touch.

[00:54:30] Dr. Katie Deming MD: Sounds great. Thank you. Thanks.

Thank you for joining me on Born to Heal. It's been a privilege to share this time with you, and I hope that today's episode has offered you valuable insights on your journey toward optimal health. Please consider subscribing, sharing this podcast with your friends, and leaving us a review. To learn more about how you can work with me, visit BornToHeal.

com. Please visit katydemming. com. You can find additional resources in the [00:55:00] episode show notes linked below, and remember to join us next week as we continue to explore more holistic approaches to healing until then. This is Dr. Katie Deming reminding you that just like me, you were born to heal.