Episode 139 | Sugar Cravings Are NOT About Food (Why Willpower Always Fails) | ft. Matty Lansdown

Speaker: ~Okay, here's the hook, Marvin Mar Marvin, here's the hook.~ [00:00:00] Today we're uncovering why sugar grips your brain. What's really driving your cravings, and the one shift that ends the cycle, no willpower required. ~Here's the episode, intro. ~

Dr. Katie Deming: Welcome to Born To Heal the podcast, helping people with cancer go beyond the western medicine to heal naturally through the ancient power of prolonged water fasting so you can ditch the toxic protocols.

Take control of your health and let your body do what it's designed to do, heal. I'm your host, Dr. Katie Deming.

Speaker: Today I am joined by Matty Lansdown, scientist, nutritionist, and emotional eating specialist.

Best known for helping women break free from sugar cravings and binge eating by healing the deeper emotional roots, not just the diet. In our conversation, you'll learn why sugar addiction is a real measurable phenomenon in the brain and how the food industry engineers products to exploit it. You'll also learn the hidden emotional triggers driving your cravings and why knowledge alone has never been [00:01:00] enough to stop them.

And finally, the first step to regaining control around sugar that has nothing to do with willpower restriction or cutting anything out. Let's dive in.

Dr. Katie Deming: So Matty, welcome back to the show. It's wonderful to have you back to talk about sugar this time.

Matty Lansdown: Hey Katie. Thanks for having me back. I love our connections and all the chats we've had in the past, so I'm looking forward to this one.

Dr. Katie Deming: Beautiful. when people hear the, the word sugar addiction, some dismiss it as hyperbole. And in your view, is it a real addiction in the clinical sense, or is that the wrong frame?

Matty Lansdown: ~Oh, that's a good question. I mean,~ the short answer is I think yes, it's absolutely an addiction. ~Uh, ~so many people,~ uh,~ struggle to let go of it, struggle to break up with it when they give up on their diets or their treatment for whatever the first. The first stop is usually some form of sugar. ~Um, ~and there's a thousand different ways that we can justify the consumption, which is definitely addiction behavior.

You're, you're finding ways to justify a choice that you know [00:02:00] isn't ideal for yourself. ~Um, ~and also we could even compare just how general society functions in regards to the consumption of sugar, that when you behave differently and, and sometimes go on a diet or try to make some healthier choices, it's like.

Your social circle who are all in on the addiction, start bullying you or start peer pressuring you and being like, what do you mean you want gluten free? Or what do you mean you're not gonna have the chocolate? Just have a, just have one. Just have one. And sometimes that's with alcohol as well. And, and so, you know, we, we really see the, these,~ um,~ very, very similar traits from the, the group of people that you're around in response to your choice to not involve yourself in the addiction, but also ourselves, whether it's.

Eating in secret or whether it's, you know, just going to the supermarket and saying, oh, my favorite, sugary thing is on special, or it's discounted. And,~ um,~ and so we have this tendency to find so many ways, uh, to make that choice. ~Um, ~so I think it's, it's difficult to say that it's not an addiction when so many people [00:03:00] resort to that as a way to cope with or manage any problem in their life.

Dr. Katie Deming: No, absolutely. For me, you know, I did an episode on this, I forget, it was like the beginning of the year where I know like for me, I definitely am addicted to sugar. Sugar is something that. If I start, if I have just a little, it's like it just opens the floodgates and then I want more. And the funny thing is what you say about that with friends is that I had had like, you know, red Vines over Thanksgiving, which was like, I went to the movies with my kids and I'm like, oh, what's the harm of having, you know, red Vines?

And then all of a sudden it was like it opened the door, right? And then someone sent me, who actually, it's funny 'cause she was a health coach with me. She sent me a ~um, ~advent calendar. With chocolates in it. And I was like, you know, what's the big deal? It's like one chocolate a day. And then it just really, like from the Red Vines into the one chocolate a day, it was like, oh, okay.

Here we're back in it. And for me, you know [00:04:00] what I talked about on that last episode was I used a three day fast to kind of break that. But 100% what you're saying is, is so true. It's like. I don't behave this way around any other thing in my life. Sugar is something that definitely once I open the door, it's like I'm just like pulled right back into it and it's like I can't stop.

Matty Lansdown: And I would argue too, that it's maybe more psychologically, it's maybe more hard to distinguish,~ uh,~ or, or draw a line in the sand with sugar because. Let's say heroin or alcohol or cigarettes or whatever it might be, you don't need those to live. But food, you need food to live and you go to a supermarket and or anywhere that sells food and there's, it's like learning algebra all over again or trigonometry when you read labels and you're deciphering the marketing, can I have this?

Can I not have this? What kind of sugar is in this? You know? ~Um, ~and so it becomes so confusing and in those scenarios where we feel [00:05:00] incompetent or ill-equipped to interpret all of that information, we just default to, I want it. So I'm gonna have it right. ~Um, ~and so it can be super confusing. ~Um, ~it's like, oh, you know, the diet says this is good or this is bad, or.

A good example I think is like cheat days or treat days. When we start thinking like that, it actually, it's actually really confusing for our subconscious mind because what we do is we say the cake is good on Saturday night at the birthday party, but the cake is bad on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

~Um, ~and this, this inability to, or this ability for us to go between, it's good on some days and bad on some on on other days. It's actually really confusing because we then find loopholes in that psychological loopholes to be like, well, Saturday's kind of like today. ~Um, ~or what if somebody's birthday's not on Saturday, but it's on Tuesday.

~Um, ~and, and this just begins the slippery slope, which people who have yo-yo dieted for years know all too well. It's that every day I [00:06:00] can find a reason to justify my choices, and then by the end of the day, I'm beating myself up and I've got all the best intentions for tomorrow. So I'll start again tomorrow and then tomorrow.

Turns out to be just like today.

Dr. Katie Deming: That sounds very familiar. I have to say that like scarily familiar. It's like you in in the cheat days. It's interesting that you bring that up because that's one thing that I had done in the past, and then it's like. It's okay for a little bit and then like you said, it gets like slippery slope and you just end up being right back where you started.

Matty Lansdown: me, me too, by the way. Like, you know, I don't, I'm not up here on a pedestal being like, I am the perfect person, you know? ~Um, ~so I've battled with this a lot. We've got a 1-year-old, so the last year has also introduced many sugar related challenges for me, again, to my life. So, ~um, ~yes, I understand this as a, a lived experience.

Dr. Katie Deming: Well, I, I'm glad to hear that you're human too, like the rest of us. So I'm wondering, Matty, can you walk us through what's actually happening in the, in the brain [00:07:00] and the body? When someone eats sugar repeatedly, how does it compare to like other addictive substances?

Matty Lansdown: Good question. Well, the comparison to a lot of other addictive substances is that it is a, a more, a higher response,~ um,~ which is concerning and it probably explains why it's so hard to break up with. ~Um, ~basically, I guess it's a cocktail of. Positive, feel good hormones that we're in pursuit of, that's what we're chasing.

And, and this often gets referenced as dopamine addiction and there's lots of different debates as to whether or not that's, you know, tangibly what's happening. But it's a good way to understand that we are in constant pursuit of pleasure. And so the interesting thing though is that dopamine is, is more of a motivation,~ uh,~ neurotransmitter.

Than it is actually the result. ~Um, ~so when we usually get,~ uh,~ serotonin, which is a, another feel good hormone more when we've hit the result, but the dopamine is in the pursuit of, so it's kind of before we do the eating. ~Um, ~and it's like, it's the thing that'll get you to the gym and you'll feel good when you do the, you know, the, the workout and the reps.

And there'll still be [00:08:00] dopamine as part of that, but there'll be more serotonin and more relaxation kind of neurotransmitters and hormones that come on the other side of that. And so we're basically in pursuit of just like, I need another hit, I need another feel, good moment. ~Um, ~and this, this essentially comes from.

Living in the western world, which is really becoming the whole world now. ~Um, ~the dopamine is everywhere, or the pursuit of good feelings are absolutely everywhere. And that can be sugar, like so in all forms of food, every meal, every snack, you might be a grazer. So it's like literally going on 10 plus hours a day.

~Um, ~and that's just the food. And then we go to our phones. So our phones, whether we're subscribed to news apps and we justify our addiction to the news as being, you know, it's important to be an informed member of society. Arguably that's just another justification for a dopamine addiction. ~Um, ~and then of course, oh my god, social media, right?

~Um, ~if we've got multiple apps going off all day, or even if we have notifications turned off. We often find, we'll go hunting for who's messaged us, what the latest information is, and we'll say same, [00:09:00] same thing with sugar. I'll just have one, I'll just look at a couple of reels, you know, and then you look at the clock and it's like, how is it 45 minutes later?~ Um, ~so it's just this constant pursuit of feeling good. And, and then we can also go beyond that and. You know, there's things like porn, you know, and a lot of the world consumes porn and it's more of this dopamine feel good stuff,~ um,~ in pursuit of a connection or, or some kind of, you know, neurological experience of being like, I feel happy, I feel complete, I feel great and similar to sugar afterwards, nobody feels amazing, right?

~Um, ~so, so whether it be doom scrolling, whether it be porn, whether it be sugar,~ um,~ and then we have this crash, right? ~Uh, ~this dopamine sort of serotonin crash where we're sort of. We're a bit down, we're depressed,~ um,~ and that we might not feel like we have depression, but we're sort of on this down. And so that, that, that creates this up and down cycle that we go on all day.

Bouncing between doing a little bit of work, then quickly checking social media, doing a little bit of work. Quickly having a snack, you know, coming up against the [00:10:00] task, that feels a little bit tricky or you've gotta spend time figuring out. And so you find a reason to go to the fridge or the cafe 'cause you need a little dopamine to help you get through this challenging task that's in front of you.

~Um, ~so yeah, this is the thing that we're in pursuit of. And then the down part,~ um,~ or when there's, in the pre where in the presence of any stress, like cortisol or adrenaline,~ uh,~ if we've been on that cycle historically, you know, a lot of times before, daily, weekly, monthly,~ um,~ as soon as that cortisol and stress.

Experience happens in our body. Again, we wanna neutralize that because we are having a survival response. And so we don't wanna die, we don't want to starve, you know, we don't wanna have any negative experience. So, ~uh, ~you know, we then are back into the pursuit of dopamine and so we pick up the phone and we might even do them all at once.

You know, we might watch Netflix whilst having our phone in our hand and eating food, right? It's like three things at once. ~Um, ~so yeah, and I think. The, the thing that's happened over the last, let's say 30 years with, you know, things like Netflix and then social media and all of this kind of stuff, is that we've slowly lost resilience [00:11:00] and the ability to sit with our discomfort.

And, and also we've, we've slowly,~ uh,~ moved away from our ability to problem solve. And it's like, oh, I can't problem solve without a little dopamine hit along the way to let me know that I'm doing a good job. ~Um, ~and so it's like, how do we, you know, I guess maybe we'll talk about this, but you know, the opposite is what needs to happen in order for us to eventually wean ourself off, which is we need a little bit longer.

Stress, you know, we need a little bit longer before the dopamine, you know, and slowly we want to extend that gap over time so that it becomes not scary to be in stress, but, oh, this is familiar. I've gotta do some stuff to solve this problem. I know how to do that. Or if I don't, I'm more than capable of solving that problem.

And then the dopamine comes from solving the problem or fixing the thing, you know? ~Um, ~so we get our dopamine elsewhere.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah.

Matty Lansdown: correct, correct. And then we get the whole cocktail. That feels good. That sugar would've given us anyway, but we actually did something productive.

Dr. Katie Deming: Beautiful. Well, and this is what's interesting actually about my [00:12:00] work now that with prolonged water fasting is that when we ha fast people, of course the food goes away, right? They're just drinking water. But then we have them get off their phones, we have them limit their screen time, we have them limit, they're not working.

And so all of those, ~um. ~Coping, you know, mechanisms or coping things that they use to distract and to get that dopamine hit we take away, which is super uncomfortable them, but they learn. This, what you're describing, creating that space between the, you know. Impulse to grab it. And then in getting that dopamine hit and learning how to be in that space and learning how to become resilient and like really being with themselves in a deep way, which is, I, I didn't expect that, that wasn't really why I started fasting people.

But it's beautiful and it, it totally fits with what,~ um,~ you describe and, you know, a lot of your work distinguishes between physical cravings and emotional cravings. [00:13:00] And I'm wondering like, and I think this, you know. So much of it is emotional now, especially as I watch people fast and go through this.

It's like the emotional stuff is what people are really, you know, numbing. But I'm wondering how do people tell the difference in the moment between a physical craving and emotional cravings?

Matty Lansdown: Yeah, that's a fantastic question and something that's definitely evolved with me over the last almost 10 years. The more that I've worked with people and the more that I've understood people's nutritional deficiencies, but also their emotional gaps or blocks or anything like that. And, and I think I probably started in the camp of it all being nutritional.

It's like people just aren't getting what they need. And that's sort of, you know, where I spend a lot of time with people and realize, oh, it's their psychology. Pretty much, and then I swang all the way over to, it's, it's only psychology. As long as we can overcome the problems in our mind, we can do anything.

~Um, ~which, you know, I still believe to some extent, but now I'm somewhere in the middle. ~Um, ~and so I think it's really difficult in the beginning to tell the difference between whether it's [00:14:00] neurological hunger or actual physical hunger,~ um,~ or emotional hunger. And so the reason it's hard to tell is first and foremost, because most people are really disconnected from their bodies where like.

Our world is so focused on head thinking, intellect, intelligence, that kind of thing, that,~ um,~ we're so distracted with how busy everything is,~ uh,~ that we don't actually know the language of our body. ~Um, ~and, and I, I work,~ um,~ as part of a, I sort of plug into a coaching, an executive coaching team for another company that I do some work for.

~Um, ~and we do some really high level company stuff, like CEOs of companies with like a hundred thousand. Employees kind of stuff. ~Um, ~and it's interesting because it's almost like the, the more responsibility or busyness somebody experiences, the less connected to their body they are. And they could have been having symptoms for 30 years that they've only have only gotten bad enough that they finally, they can't ignore them.

And then we start to dig into it and it's like, oh yeah, this has been happening for 30 years. ~Um, ~I've either been ignoring it, not known how to interpret it, or just didn't even know it was happening. So I think thing [00:15:00] one is like. Knowing the language of your body is like, so, so, so important emotionally and physically.

And then I guess beyond that, it's figuring out what does your diet look like? Because we, if a simple diet analysis should be able to tell us if there's any major deficiency that's, that's driving cravings. ~Um, ~and also your sort of doing a bit of timeline therapy of figuring out your past and your history and the way you view yourself now.

And that can usually tell us as well what might come up and then beyond. Understanding those things, which obviously sound like big things to under understand. It's then when those cravings come up, it's about self-reflection and self-observation and being like, you know, doing the logical checklist. Did I have protein with breakfast?

You know, do I feel,~ um,~ have I, have I had a stressful day? Have I got any feelings coming up? Have I sort of had a little bit of stuff come up with my partner or have my kids annoyed me today? You know, and, and it's just doing a checklist of like, what could it be? You know, I'm not necessarily of the belief that, you know, it's always [00:16:00] hardcore trauma either.

It can be for many people. ~Um, ~but some people were just simply victims to a trillion dollar marketing enterprise called the sugar industry that successfully convinced them that convenience and low cost foods are the solution to their problems. ~Um, ~but for many people it is trauma. It's memories, it's old relationships.

It's the longing for things they don't have. ~Um, ~and so. ~Um, ~what we've done in, in recent times is actually introduced, ~ um,~ sort a couple of different supplements to help people with the ~neurological, uh, sorry, to help people with the ~physical hunger, to make sure that their mitochondria is working properly, to make sure that they're burning the energy that they're putting into their body.

And if we can heal that metabolism a little bit, then it becomes much clearer when the cravings are, I'm hungry for food, or I'm hungry for. Insert emotion, love, comfort, connection, so that that's, those supplements in the last few years have really helped us distinguish those two categories.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. That's so interesting. I'm curious, like, are there, is this like a, you know, very different supplements depending [00:17:00] on what people need? Are there a few supplements that fall in this category?

Matty Lansdown: Yeah, it's a good question. So I guess we, yeah, we put a put together this thing called ~um, ~mitoses sink, which is like sinking your mitochondria,~ um,~ because. And it's good that we're talking about sugar because one thing that,~ um,~ there's a metabolic researcher who I can connect you with actually,~ um,~ who's put together,~ um,~ a bunch of research,~ uh,~ which includes cancer work and includes a few other things.

But it's basically that,~ um,~ as we know, mitochondrial dysfunction is a feature of, of a lot of diseases. ~Um, ~and the, the way that we go about it in the Western medical system is that we look at all of these problems and organs and situations as individual problems. ~Um, ~and instead of going to the root,~ um,~ and then, you know, the natural people that are natural leaning usually try to look for root causes.

And so this is more doing that. And the idea is that fructose,~ um, actually fructose~ actually. Reduces the energy output of the mitochondria. And evolutionarily speaking, the function of this is because,~ um,~ high fructose foods were most readily available just before the famine, right? Late summer, [00:18:00] just before the dry season and around the equator.

And so the idea is fructose, downregulates, mitochondrial energy output so that you can prioritize fat storage in that moment because you're about to actually burn the fat during winter, right? However, with high fructose corn syrup and sucrose and all of these fructose additives, what happens is that we basically have been telling our mitochondria all throughout our body, winter, we're preparing for winter, but winter never comes, and we prepare for winter for like.

50 years instead of, you know, six months. ~Um, ~and then do the winter. ~Um, ~and so, and this might actually be a really good argument for water fasting so that the, you know, the body experiences the winter because once the fructose,~ um,~ is sort of out of the system,~ uh,~ basically the mitochondria slowly, slowly, slowly starts to return to it.

Full energy burning capacity. But it is worth mentioning fructose is created in the liver as a result of dehydration,~ um,~ as a result of,~ um,~ being in situations where you're super stressed or your survival is a, is a threat. And this is where, again, [00:19:00] the emotional work comes in because a lot of the stories we tell ourself with a lot of experiences we've had throughout our life trigger a stress response.

And so, as you can imagine, if we're thinking on an evolutionary level, stress. Threat to our survival. Therefore, liver produces fructose, downregulate, store body fat so that we, you know, can survive whatever's about to happen. ~Um, ~and so basically the supplements that we use help block this fructo kinase pathway.

That mean that it downregulates mitochondrial output. So therefore over time, and some people. It's a couple of weeks. Some people it's months. We slowly return the mitochondria to where it was in the beginning. Food cravings massively reduce,~ uh,~ people's food obsession or rumination or binge eating starts to disappear.

And the good thing is from that point, we can really tell when it's physical hunger or emotional hunger.

Dr. Katie Deming: ~Amazing. I love that. Well, and I love what you just explained. ~~Hang on one sec. They're gonna bark here for a second. Let me just let her come in the house. But so Marvin, cut this part out until I tell you to restart. This is actually fascinating for me. What was the name of it?~

Matty Lansdown: ~Uh, the supplement we use is Sugar Shield, but we've got it in a little stack called Mitoses Sink. So we also pair it with an Omega-3. Um, and then just a, uh, like a liver, an organic liver supplement is a good, um, source of iron just 'cause so many people are deficient in iron. And a lot of people take, you know, chemist or drug store supermarket, um, uh, multivitamin.~

~And so we usually swap that out for something organ based so that they can actually absorb the nutrients and they're morphologically what they should be.~

Dr. Katie Deming: ~Got it. Got it. Okay. Um, so Marvin, you can, um, pick back up here~~.~ So Matty, tell me what is the name of that supplement, just for people if they're looking for this and we can link to it as well. The, what you were talking about,

Matty Lansdown: Yeah, absolutely. so yeah, the one we use [00:20:00] is Sugar Shield, is the main one in our mito sink stack, and then we pair it with an Omega-3 supplement. ~Um, ~and that's not a fish oil. ~Um, ~so, so many of the fish oils on the, on the shelf. ~Uh, ~unfortunately rancid, and there's a bunch of studies around that too. ~Um, ~so we've got an Omega-3 in there.

And then we also use,~ um,~ like a li, an organ based liver supplement,~ um,~ to, as a good source of iron. So many people are deficient in iron, but also has a good multivitamin because. Unfortunately, most,~ uh,~ multivitamins that are off the shelf are, yeah, synthetic. They're not what,~ uh,~ they're not. You usually go to the toilet and pee them out in fluorescent colors, but if you take something that's organ based and therefore food,~ um,~ you're gonna absorb what you need and excrete what you don't, and it's a much more effective.

Dr. Katie Deming: Perfect. That makes so much sense. And also like I, I love the way you described that because I've never heard that described in terms of the whole fructose aspect of it and how that's related to the modern life and stress and all of that. It just makes sense. I wanna circle back to something, you know, you talked about the sugar industry and I, this is something, you know, the [00:21:00] sugar industry is engineering products for maximum consumption.

Right. And what are some of the tricks that most people don't even realize are being used on them by the sugar industry?

Matty Lansdown: Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, there's so many different names for Sugar, first and foremost. ~Um, ~the last time I, at some point I used to have like a free download where it was like over, you know, look at the 100 plus different names for sugar that might be in your food. So, and that was years ago, so there's probably more now.

~Um. ~But I guess the other thing is,~ uh,~ marketing advertising. ~Um, ~I had a psychologist on my podcast some time ago, and he is been on a few times. Interestingly, he's a binge eating psychologist now, but he actually started in the eighties and nineties as like the number one psychologist informing big food companies to create,~ uh,~ food packaging that was more appealing to people.

And he was tapping into their evolutionary biology. And this is where the bright colors come from, because in nature. We see a bright color and we either think danger or we think fruit, you know, health, abundance. ~Um, ~so that's [00:22:00] why a lot of reds are often used when it comes to sugary food. 'cause in our mind, and it's like the girl in the red dress, you know, it's like we're all attracted to this, this red, vibrant energy kind of thing.

So, ~um, ~so colors is one. ~Um, ~the language is another. So a lot of brands very strategically call themself. Organic nature or whatever it is. ~Um, ~and they use these words that sound like you as a person know the definition of the word, but we seem to lo it gets lost in translation that this word is being used as a brand, not representing the meaning of the word.~ Um, ~and therefore it can, we can make false assumptions very easily based on seeing those brand names that, oh, this must be good. Right. And so that's a really common one. There are so many brands that have got organic or nature or natural, somewhere in the brand name. ~Um, ~they might also say on the packaging, no preservatives.

And when they do that, you should ask, but what about the additives? And if they say no additives, you should say, what about the preservatives? So they're usually trying to push the one part of their product, which from a marketing [00:23:00] perspective is great. But that's usually an attempt, in my opinion, to distract from what else is going on in there because you'll read that you're busy, you're tired, you're at the supermarket, you're just like, oh, no preservatives.

Great. Whatever. Throw it in the trolley. Throw it in the cart. ~Um. ~So, so that's just a couple of them. The other ones, which I think maybe me feel a bit darker,~ um,~ is the flavor industry is like this multi-billion dollar industry that supports the junk food industry essentially. And it's been going for a very long time.

Like they started to separate the exact chemicals in flavor in like the late 17 hundreds. ~Um, ~but. Over time, and especially in the last sort of 50 to a hundred years, they've gotten exceptionally good at figuring out which exact Mogo molecule in, say, vanilla or chicken or barbecue. It's the one that make people love it.

~Um, ~and so what they've done is that they've done all of this sort of amazing, impressive research, but once they know that molecule, they then pull it out, synthetically, replicate it, and sell it to companies basically. So [00:24:00] one way to think about it is like chips or crisps or potato chips, it's like they, if they can put.

That exact barbecue flavoring in what that does to your brain. And it's like, we've been eating cooked meat for a very, very long time, you know? And so we've got some evolutionary trigger that says, that molecule tells me that I'm eating protein, right? And so it tricks us into thinking I'm eating some on some level barbecued meat.

And so we keep eating this carbohydrate chips,~ um,~ and our brain's like. Where's the protein? And so we keep going in, we keep going looking for it. 'cause our gut can't detect any of the protein. ~Um, ~but our tongue is telling our brain it must be there. This is very much the same with this is why everything is chicken or barbecue flavor, because that works so effectively at manipulating our behavior to continue looking for the protein,~ uh,~ which is just wild,~ uh,~ that that is what happens.

And there's books on it. They have conferences, they have Bliss Point conferences on this kind of stuff where they put the, the perfect mix of sugar and salt and sometimes [00:25:00] caffeine and sometimes fat to make it more addictive. And~ And companies, uh, uh, ~many of the su big sugar companies in the world were taken over by cigarette companies,~ um,~ and, and pulled together by cigarette companies.

And so they apply the exact same,~ um,~ addictive,~ uh,~ sort of. Chemical cocktail or thinking to the food products to make us addicted, which is why this, you know, this, this conversation exists. It's why my business has had function because so many people can't let go of these foods. But as we start to understand some of this stuff, I think the one message I like people to take away from hearing this is simply like a lot of it is not your fault.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. And also, you know, shopping the perimeter sounds really good at this point of like staying away all of that stuff in the middle of eating, actually the real food. And then there's, you know, it's complicated there because you've gotta really understand what those labels and everything on organic and that kind of thing.

But you know, your story about the, you know, making. Packaging more appealing. My ex-husband was a brand designer and he was, his [00:26:00] specialty was packaging and packaging food, and I remember there was like this pizza. Like frozen pizza or something that they were,~ um,~ you know, working on the branding and it was like the world's best pizza or some, like, something like that.

Like as if it was like a claim to, and I was like, how do you know that this is the world? He's like, it's branding. It doesn't, like, you don't have to follow any rules. Like they can just say that. I was like. And I was so naive at the time, I was like, that's terrible. Like how could they just do that? And now after that, I like would never look at packaging the same because I'm like, they're literally just saying whatever they need and using the colors and all of that to attract you.

But it doesn't have to be truthful.

Matty Lansdown: Oh, sadly, that's true. There's a, there's a really good, um, daily example of this. There's a guy on Instagram called Matt Rosenman. ~Um, ~and his tag, I just got it up here, is Cheat Day Design. And he is, he is got a massive following, but he shows you like every couple of days he'll do a different [00:27:00] product, like a sugary product that, you know, might be Pepsi, might be Coke, might be something.

~Um, ~and he will rebrand it. Essentially with colors and language and style to show you how they make things look healthy with the design. And it just really opens your eyes to like how manipulative these things are without even intentionally. It's like, but didn't they just pick a couple of pretty colors?

And it's like, no. They very strategically chose these colors. Color psychology is amazing. But yeah, cheat day design. Fantastic to open your eyes to this, and then you start walking around the supermarket or seeing advertising and you, you're like, I know for myself, I point out to my partner, YALI. I say, look at those words.

They're trying to get us there with that, aren't they? ~Um, ~and then you feel like this little rebel who can kind of see the matrix a little bit.

Dr. Katie Deming: I am excited. I'm gonna check out that account. It is, it's frightening actually, when you start to pull back the layers and see what's going on. And also what you described there with the flavoring of the chicken and the barbecue. It's it, you know, some of this is, I. [00:28:00] I know that, you know, they will say it's just about selling products, but it's nefarious.

You know, this is like making us sick. This is why we are so sick. But I wanna, I wanna switch gears a little bit here. So you've said, you know, this is interesting for me. You've said that emotional easing isn't always a bad thing and I'm wondering, can you unpack that? 'cause like that to me seems so counterintuitive.

What do you mean by that?

Matty Lansdown: That's a great question 'cause it can feel at odds with probably some of the stuff that I've said already. But I think historically the sitting down and breaking bread together was a very important human connection. ~Um, ~and whether we go back to tribal days and some strange people have come along and we invite them in and we offer them.

Food or someone we know well has come over or we wanna do dinner with friends. ~Um, ~or, or it's an important family function. So I think when, when I'm talking about emotional eating, not always being bad, it's being aware of what's happening and, and really leaning into the social connection because. One thing when it comes [00:29:00] to any addiction,~ um,~ and there's been sort of research, but also TED talks and different things on this topic is that a lot of people think the opposite to addiction is abstinence.

~Um, ~and actually one of the things that most people that are addicted, one of what they're seeking is usually connection. ~Um, ~and so we talk about dopamine and we talk about serotonin, and we experience them from lots of different things, but arguably the thing that we're truly seeking is actually oxytocin.

It's actually to be hugged, to be loved, to be held, to have experiences that go far beyond dopamine and serotonin. ~Um, ~and, and so, ~um, ~when I, when I talk about it being not a bad thing, it's. Situations that produce oxytocin. ~Um, ~it's family dinner on Sunday or Friday night, you know, maybe it's Friday night, we get pizza for everybody.

~Um, ~or it's catching up with a friend. ~Um, ~and, and this, this shouldn't be confused with,~ um,~ you know, like shooting up with your, your sponsor, right? ~Um, ~so it's important that it's like we're here because we're having a meal together. We're having some [00:30:00] fantastic. Food. I haven't seen you in a while. I, you know, I love you.

I care about you. And so I think it, it falls into that category, emotional eating. When we do it by ourself or we're sitting on the couch and it's fueled by guilt or self punishment or self-loathing or anything like that, is, you know, that's when we really need to check in with ourself and maybe do a little bit of, bit of work on ourselves and, and try and solve some of those problems.

But in the context of seeking oxytocin and family and friends, I think that's a fantastic way to emotionally eat.

Dr. Katie Deming: Got it. No, that makes sense. It it's that the community, you know, the, the breaking bread together, that's something that is,~ um,~ joyful and, and know, maybe it's finding the right foods that you can eat together that are, you know, healthier choices, ~ um,~ around that. So that, that makes sense to me. And I'm wondering for someone listening who like genuinely feels out of control around sugar.

What is a first step that they can take that isn't just using willpower or going cold Turkey? Like what? What would you say to that [00:31:00] person?

Matty Lansdown: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think there's two strategies. You could start with supplements,~ um,~ but you also, that might not be the answer in the sense that, you know, you should never rely on pills to solve a problem. 'cause every human that I've ever met, it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of the nutrition and it's a little bit of the,~ uh,~ emotionals.

Stuff. So, ~um, ~so supplements could be a part of it to get clear on like, where am I emotionally eating, where am I not? ~Um, ~but then I guess the more important part is the emotional stuff. 'cause that's gonna be with us our whole life. So either way we probably need to look at it and process it and deal with it.

And so the way to start is, is not by doing anything really other than self observation. So when you are eating, asking yourself. What am I eating? Why am I eating it? Where am I eating it? And just start to record a little bit of data. And every time you eat, we just wanna document how am I feeling? What's going on?

~Um, ~and, and maybe try and think about the day or the day before. What, what could be driving this? Was there stress involved? The idea here is we're trying to become self literate. ~Uh, ~not trying to stop the food. We're not trying to be really [00:32:00] harsh or restrictive. We're just trying to understand. If I get stressed on Monday, then it seems like Tuesday is a bad food day.

~Uh, ~right. And so once we start developing this self-awareness that when this happens. Food is the outcome. From that position, we can actually start making changes one at a time by changing those situations, either having hard conversations,~ um,~ either maybe seeing a therapist or doing some kind of psychological work or emotional work that'll help us release some stuff.

~Um, ~we might need to literally change the way that we drive home from work. ~Um, ~because maybe at the end of the workday, you know, you eat good all day,~ um,~ and then it's like, I'm tired, I'm stressed, I'm a bit late. I'll just quickly go through the drive through and get some takeout or buy something and I'll eat it in the car before I get home so nobody sees it.

~Um, ~and so a simple solution might be really practical. It might be. I need to take a different path home so I don't smell the food. Like for me, one of the things that I just have an agreement with myself, I cannot go to a supermarket in the morning because the bakery, just to over, just the smell of the bakery makes [00:33:00] all rational thought go out the window for me.

So I just don't go to supermarkets in the morning and I'm, I don't miss it. Like I, because I don't, it's not until I have that smell that I'm like, oh, and then I've gotta start wrestling my demons. But, but if I don't have the smell or the sensory trigger, then. I don't have anything to fight against. ~Um, ~so there's the practical elements, but first and foremost would be we need to start sort of documenting and doing a little bit of an audit of your life and your food,~ um,~ so that we can figure out where the problems are.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. No, that's beautiful. And it's interesting, two things that came up when you were speaking about that. One is that with the, like I host a three day fast every month and the. For those. A lot of those people, you know, this is new for them. Fasting and we talk, it's all about just self knowledge. You're just learning about yourself by going through this and seeing, and it's funny because last month when I was leading this fast, I almost broke the fast early, like day one, I almost had a burger and I was just like, this is shocking.

[00:34:00] 'cause I do three day fast every month. But what I saw was that I had. Eat more carbs over the weekend because there had been two like celebrations that I had gone to and I'd kind of eaten out of my usual, and then when I was in the fast, so I'm always talking to them about this, like it's not like I didn't beat myself up over that.

I luckily didn't break the fast and actually stayed in it. I was able to talk myself through it, but I tell them this is all just about. Recognizing what you're doing and your behavior and then looking around to see, okay, what drove that? What was different about this fast versus my last fast? Why did I feel that way?

Like I was just, you know, had to have that burger when I was going to a movie and you know, learning that. So that was the first thing is that I love this. What you're saying is that, because I think this is the key for everything, really, is learning who you are and why you make the decision. So that. don't beat yourself up over the decision that we just made, but we look forward to say, okay, I'm gonna put, you know, things in [00:35:00] place so that the next time I'm able to make a better decision.

You know? And then the other piece, so you're talking about going to the bakery in the morning? That makes a hundred percent sense to me. My thing is that nothing good happens when I eat after 6:00 PM. Just literally nothing. Like there's literally nothing that happens great in my,~ um,~ eating world if I eat in the evening.

So I'm just really clear about I eat my meal, like my main meal kind of later in the afternoon, early evening, and then I'm just done because if I allow that crack, for me, that's like a way where I know it's just tempting and I end up making bad choices.

Matty Lansdown: Yeah, I think the thing you're speaking to is something I've, I talk a lot to people about,~ um,~ it's this wrestle between believing we're a moderator when actually we're an abstainer. ~Um, ~and I find that people really want to be, every, every time they start a new diet, they're like, I'll successfully moderate my relationship with the addictive substance this time.

And then 40 years of dieting goes by,~ um,~ and they're like, fine. I get it. [00:36:00] I'm an abstainer, or at the very least, I have to set 90% of my life up so that abstinence is the solution. ~Um, ~and, and it's like in the, in the moments where moderation or, or, you know, indulgence happens, they're sort of contained and only in specific moments.

~Um, ~but so many people pretend or live in the delusion, as I did as well for a long time that I'm a moderator. ~Um, ~and most of us with addictive substances usually have to be abstainers.

Dr. Katie Deming: I love it. Well, I just learned something new, so I just learned. I am not a moderator. can tell you that for sure. I am not a moderator. I'm an abstainer, so thank you for giving me that language. So Matty, this has been truly a privilege to have you back on the show. I'm wondering where can people find you in your work?

Matty Lansdown: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me. ~Um, ~I love talking about this stuff. ~Um, ~so I guess you can find me on whether it be Instagram or my podcast as well, which you've been on Katie too,~ um,~ which is called the Real Weight Loss Coach. ~Uh, ~so it's the same handle on Instagram. ~Uh, ~same handle on YouTube, so come and check it out.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah, [00:37:00] we'll put the links in. So wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a privilege.

Matty Lansdown: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker: ~Okay, so for the outro, here we go. What a powerful conversation. I hope you're walking away feeling seen, hopeful. I'm gonna do that again. Hang on. Let me turn my do not disturb on so I don't get another, okay.~

~What a powerful conversation. I hope you're walking away feeling seen, hopeful, and maybe for the first time, like the struggle with sugar was never a character flaw. It was a signal. I know that. I feel that way. Listening to after talking with Matty. Let me, let me record that again. ~What a powerful conversation.

I hope you're walking away feeling seen, hopeful, and maybe for the first time, like the struggle with sugar was never a character flaw. It was a signal. I know. I feel that way after speaking with Matty. To summarize, here are the key points we covered today. First, sugar hijacks the brain in ways that are biologically real, and the food industry knows exactly what it's doing when it designs the products on our shelves.

Secondly, we learn that cravings are rarely just about food. They're messengers pointing to unmet emotional needs, and learning to listen to them is where real change begins. And finally we learned that breaking the cycle doesn't start with a stricter diet. It starts with a deeper awareness of your triggers and a gentler, more sustainable way of relating to food and yourself.

Thank you so much for listening. I know your time and [00:38:00] attention are valuable and I'm very grateful you chose to spend time with me today. I look forward to connecting with you on the next episode. If you found today's episode helpful and you're ready to experience what real healing feels like from the inside out, join me for a three day water fast next month.

Link is in the description below. Thank you for listening. And remember, just like me, you were born to heal.~ ~

Dr. Katie Deming: ~Probably gonna have dogs start barking when my daughter comes home from school. Just ignore it. Since we're on two tracks. If you're talking, if I, if, if I'll pause if I need to, but yeah.~

Matty Lansdown: ~Totally fine. I might have a, a ranting baby somewhere. He's, he's one and he can walk and he's got a voice and so he's running around~

Dr. Katie Deming: ~Oh, I love that. What's his name?~

Matty Lansdown: ~Gabriel.~

Dr. Katie Deming: ~Gabriel. I love that. Well, that's, that's, that's joyous. That's, that's welcome. Noise in the background. I love it. Um, okay. Well welcome Matty. ~